[Advaita-l] Bh.Gita verse 18.73 - Was Arjuna an 'aparoksha Jnani'? - Part 4

[Sunil Bhattacharjya]

Dear sir,
 
Please do not forget that the birth of Vidura was like that of Vedavyasa. Vidura was the biological son of Vedavyasa through a low-born woman, so also Vedavyasa was the biological son of sage Parashara  through a low-born woman. If Vedavyasa could have had the adshikara to get enlightened so did Vidura have it.
 
Regards,
 
Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
 

--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Bh.Gita verse 18.73 - Was Arjuna an 'aparoksha Jnani'? - Part 4
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 9:03 PM


On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Jaldhar H. Vyas
<jaldhar at braincells.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Venkatesh Murthy wrote:
>
>> Puranas give a chance for the women and non brahmins to understand the
>> vedanta. But purana knowledge is not same as vedanta knowledge.
>
> Why not? jnana is jnana is jnana.  Puranas and other smrtis derive their
> authority from being the essence of Shruti.  If Shruti can provide knowledge
> (or more accurately destroy the ignorance that veils self-knowledge) then so
> can the puranas.  If the brahmasutras can destroy ignorance then so can the
> puranas which have the same author. And this is the conclusion of shruti
> itself.  See Chhandogyopanishad 7.1.2 where Narada in ennumerating to
> Sanatkumara the fields of knowledge he has learned mentions
>
> R^igvedaM bhagavo.adhyAmi yajurvedaM sAmavedamAtharvaNaM chaturthamitihAsa
> purANAM pa~nchamaM
>
> "Rigveda, Sir I have learned, the Yajurveda, the Samaveda, the atharvana as
> the fourth, as the fifth the itihasa-purana."  Elsewhere as well we see the
> Mahabharata or the Bhagavata or itihasa-purana in general referred to as the
> "fifth veda"  Why?  They are the veda of those who do not have access to the
> other four vedas.
>
> For the karmakanda different adhikaras are laid down for different varnas,
> ashramas, genders etc. and this is right and proper for they are based on
> bodies which differ widely.  But Brahman pervades all whether moving or
> still.  A tree or a rock is just as much Brahman as Shankaracharya but it
> lacks the chetana or mental insight to realize this or the viveka to
> discriminate between real and unreal.  But can you seriously argue a human
> female or a shudra is not capable of chetana and viveka?  Shankaracharya
> does not think so.  He mentions Sulabha a female jnani in the bhashya on
> 3.3.32.
> Vidura and Dharmavyadha are mentioned as jnanis who were Shudras in the
> bhashya on 1.3.38.

This is not correct.  Adi Sankara said Vidura and Dharmavyadha had
good samskaras from previous janma. the result of this was jnana in
the non dvija janma.  They were exceptions only probably 0.0000001% or
less of all people. All non dvijas cannot be like them. they are
disqualified from learning Brahmavidya

In the smrutis it is written hot lead should be filled in ears of any
sudra or lower caste who hears the vedas. How can they hear vedanta?
It is totally wrong and false propaganda by enemies of Vaidika
religion.

Adi Sankara said non dvijas cannot get Brahmavidya in Brahma sutra
1.3.38 This is correct position. A brahmin who does not do
sandhyavandana is treated like a sudra only. He cannot get
Brahmavidya.

>
> But if such people cannot study the Vedas including upanishads, then this
> ability to get jnana would seem to be only theoretical.  This is where
> itihasa-purana comes in.  By reading the vedantic portions therein such as
> Gita, mokshadharma, yogavasishta etc. which contain the essence of shruti
> and are based upon them, those who are not dvija can also learn the truths
> of vedanta and achieve moksha which is the ultimate purport of all the
> shastras.  Thus they truly are the panchama Veda.
>

Adi Sankara did not write nondvija will get moksha from non vedanta.
You can check BSB. Where did he write  it? He wrote only they are
eligibile to hear itihasa puranas. The correct point is they will be
born as  brahmins in their next janma by hearing the itihasa puranas.

>> Arjuna was a warrior not a brahmin Only sannyasi can get vedanta
>> knowledge.  Krishna cannot give vedanta knowledge to non sannyasi. He
>> gave purana type of knowledge for non sannyasi Arjuna.  His doubts got
>> cleared. He fought and won the war.
>>
>> Purana  type knowledge is also good. Dont misunderstand. It leads to
>> vedanta knowledge as listener is born as brahmin in next janma.
>
> Advaita Vedanta allows for jivanmukti i.e. mukti in this lifetime.  That
> mukti is caused by jnAna and jnAna can arise in any ashrama or even no
> ashrama.  (See brahmasutra 3.4.36 antarA chApi tu taddaShTe)

No. Adi Sankara wrote this for widowers. They cannot do yagas without
a wife. But they can do japa and worship the gods. It means they can
take sanyasa and become eligible for Brahmavidya. this is written in
3.4.36. he did not write Gruhasthas and others can directly get
Brahmavidya without sanyasa. Where did he write it? Please check.

>
> A jnani will always be a sannyasi even if he starts in another ashrama
> because jnana necessarily implies vairagya and distaste for material
> posessions etc.  He may not have danda or kamandalu etc.  These things are
> governed by shastras so there may well be restrictions of various kinds but
> the core values of sannyasa are capable of being practised by anyone with
> the right qualifications.  Even in the case of institutional sannyasa it is
> not always so cut and dry.  In a thread on this same topic we had some
> months ago, several modern and historical examples of female and
> non-Brahmana sannyasis sanctioned by the most traditional authorities were
> mentioned.
>

A Gruhastha cannot directly get Brahmavidya. where Adi Sankara wrote
he can?  he must take sanyasa first. otherwise he cheats thinking I am
a great Jnani living with my family. Who can cross sea of samsara
holding a crocodile tail?

Regards

-Venkatesh

> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at braincells.com>
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