[Advaita-l] ThamasOmaa Jyothirgamaya!

[Anbu sivam2]

Siva Senani ji,

Pranaams.  The goal is one but paths are many.  This is an accepted fact, is
it not?  We object to the Christian and Muslim proselytizers when they
insist on their single path.  That objection of ours is not time-bound!  It
is ever valid.

One should have tested his own theory before prescribing it to others.  For
example Bhagavan Ramana reached the Ultimate by his own unique method  that
he prescribed to others.  (He still held that his Guru was the Holy Hill of
Arunachala.)  Yet is it not true that his method is not the only method?

If you think your indriyas will lead you to the ultimate, try it out!

However there are  two important points (that everyone agrees) that form the
pillars of our understanding.  What are they?

1) The four mahavaakyas constitute the revelation that we have in order to
escape from the samsaara.  Without this important teaching of the Veda we
will be lost in samsaara for ever.

2) The idea of Maaya as constituting the samsaara.  Maaya itself is
anirvachaneeya yet we know that it operates through the three pillars called
Desam, Kaalam and Ahamkaaram yet those three are beginningless and endless.
Do we know where space begins and where it ends?  Do we know where time
begins and ends?  Do we know where the cause starts and the effect ends
without yielding to a new cause?

We will continue to be talking about these interchangeably.  Not everyone
would therefore agree to any guidelines to 'invoke' Maya.  If a person says
something is Maaya and you disagree, how about the fact that both of them
are maaya-bound in which case neither can be the holder of the absolute
truth!  I am saying this to highlight that mere discussion cannot be won or
lost.  That is why the true understanding always ends in mounam.  Mouna
vyaakyaana prakatitham!

With best regards,


On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Anbu Sivamji, praNAm.
>
> The tools of observation (indriyas) that we have are what lead us to the
> Ultimate. We reach beyond the observed universe by the very fact of
> observing and analysing. In other words investigation of events in time and
> space - including Sruti vaakyas - is our only means to salvation. We cannot
> turn back on this. In the current context, one needs complete faith in one's
> guru to proceed further in one's sadhana. This faith must be a robust one,
> and a tested one. The least element of this faith - and the implicit
> assumption in the pramaaNa of aaptavaakya - is that one is always told the
> truth by one's guru, that one's guru or guru's institution has no 'agenda'
> or 'special interest' except the unvieling of truth. Each one must verify
> this to one's satisfaction. This is the need to investigate.
>
> Some might not have a strong enough interest or sufficient time
> to investigate such topics. That is alright; but that cannot be termed as
> being on account of time being a manifestation of maya. Some charlatans
> engage with the world fully when it suits them, and when it becomes
> inconvenient, they invoke maya; some others who behave similarly are not
> charlatans, but are merely lazy; yet others do the same without realising
> it. For instance, one takes a name, that of one's father and mother, of a
> family, a gotra and so on. All these are on account of 'time', for in the
> eternal, unchangeable state, who is a father, who is a son, who is a rishi,
> what is a gotra?
>
> If this is a bit abstract, let us take an example mentioned many times
> earlier on this list. Some say that they see all as one, that they do not
> see differences between human beings, that they live and breath the advaita
> ideal. Yet, they have a separate bank account; refuse to transfer that
> amount to another's account, who after is all is non-different from them.
>
> Flippant is something lacking in proper respect or seriousness. When
> somebody invokes maya without considering the issue properly, it is
> flippancy. To repeat, if time is irrelevant to any person on account of it
> being due to maya, everything dependent on time ought to be irrelevant:
> name, family, gotra, bank account etc.
>
> Here are the guidelines for invoking maya, and I want the scholars to
> educate, correct, criticise and guide me. The only instance when maya is to
> be invoked is when one is unable to explain what one sees and deducts
> without violation of Sruti. To be clear, this includes common sense and
> generally accepted norms of good behavious. To give an illustration, when
> one starts questioning whether Isvara wants suffering, why the world was
> created and so on, one ends at the answer: 'Isvara lila'. Similarly when
> there are so many examples in the world that one sees which state that
> differences do exist between jivas and between jiva and Isvara, how do we
> reconcile with the Sruti vakya that atma and Brahman are the same? This is
> due to maya. This is a simplified example. A more rigorous discussion would
> differentiate between avidya and maya as well, but this is the only
> instance when maya ought to be invoked.
>
> Here a critical point needs to be noted. Since we engage with the world
> every moment, with every experience 'maya' can be invoked. An honest person
> would then apply that all over, and if he truly appreciates maya, would not
> mind transferring money out of his bank account. Thus, the
> implicit guideline is: invoke maya honestly and be ready to apply it
> consistently all over. In other words, only Brahmajnaanis can invoke maya as
> reason for inaction.
>
> One more point may be noted: even Brahmajnanis, who are beyond Vedic
> strictures and other norms, follow all of those voluntarily. Why? As
> Bhagavan says, what Sishtas do, rest of the society does; the jnanis do so
> with an intent to uphold dharma. So, in practice we see that even jnanis do
> not invoke maya.
>
> What is the pramana for the above? Does the expectation that one be
> consistent require any other pramana? Without that grounding in ethics, I am
> sure one would not be a member of this list.
>
> I fully agree that a soul-less, mechanical and intellectual discussion of
> advaita is totally useless. One must be fully sensible to the import of
> advaita. That import is to destroy one's avidya and realise one's true
> nature. In other words, sadhana is what is required. However during this
> phase of sadhana, one ought not to invoke maya or the 'import of advaita' to
> say things like "this world or time is an illusion, don't engage with it",
> "caste is meaningless, advaita's teaching is against the practice of
> recognising separate castes, genders or nationalities", "I often attain
> brahmatva when I go into samadhi", and "pay $x and get englightenment".
>
> Budhajanavidheyah
> Senani
>
> ________________________________
> From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> To: sivasenani at yahoo.com; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Sent: Fri, January 1, 2010 8:28:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] ThamasOmaa Jyothirgamaya!
>
> Sivasenaniji,
>
> Namasthe.  Thanks for agreeing with me.
>
> You have said that there is need to investigate events in time and space
> but you gave no reason for such need.  Also you have said that we cannot and
> should not invoke maaya so flippantly.  In my opinion there is no flippancy
> at all in what I have said.  It was done completely based on the conviction
> that is ingrained in me and is inseparable from me.  Moreover  you have not
> explained what constitutes flippancy and neither have you given any
> guidelines as to when maaya should be 'invoked' and showing that such
> guidelines are not arbitrary and such guidelines are never be held
> flippant.  The readers and I were never made aware of any saasthra pramaaNam
> that would support the guidelines if any for the invocation of the word
> 'maaya'.  Having said that I hold that this may be frivolous topic now that
> you have agreed on the conclusion.
>
> On the investigation in question a great deal of attempt is being made to
> fit one of the greatest masters of our philosophy into a 'C' era where this
> C's existence itself is questioned by those for whom this C was relevant
> viz. the westerners.  I just typed the words "jesus did not exist" into the
> google and to my surprise it gave me 1,600,000 results in just a small
> fraction of second of search with so much research to the fact he did not
> exist at all!   Again this is only of those discussion that are made
> available on the internet that the search engine could cover in a fraction
> of a second!  I am saying this to show how fragile is the 'time' that the
> westerners are anchored in!  It is beyond the scope of the list to discuss
> about the reasons for Christ's non-existence let alone his existence.
>
> My humble opinion is that there can be no soulless, mechanical even
> intellectual discussion on Advaita and it is not possible to discuss advaita
> without the sensibility to its import.  That sensibility is rooted in the
> bhakthi of what constitutes Reality (Aum that Sat) and what constitutes
> Maaya (who is depicted as AmbaaL, His consort).  That way advaita and maaya
> are intertwined.  That is all I can say to you on this matter.
>
> If I have to tread a bit in the world of maaya and say of something
> positive on time,  why not let me wish you and all the readers a Happy New
> Year forgetting whether such years are founded in reality of Paramarthika or
> vyavaharika.!
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> 2009/12/31 <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
>
> Noble conclusion but wrong logic. If we are capable of operating at
> paaramaatika level, there is no need for this list, for posts etc.
> >
> >We need to indeed investigate events in space and time. We cannot and
> should not invoke maaya so flippantly.
> >
> >All saampraadaayavids know that there is no greater sin than yati dooshana
> and if one is incapable of not respecting one's own sampradaaya without
> denouncing others, at what stage of sadhana is that sadhaka?
> >
> >As I said, wrong reasoning but the conclusion that disrespect not be shown
> to peethams is very right for the far simpler reason of basic civility.
> >
> >Senani
> >
> >Disclaimer: Members of my family are not followers of either Sringeri
> peeTham or Kanchi peeTham.
> >
> >
> >------Original Message------
> >From: Anbu sivam2
> >Sender: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> >To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> >ReplyTo: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> >Sent: 31 Dec 2009 7:24 PM
> >Subject: [Advaita-l] ThamasOmaa Jyothirgamaya!
> >
> >Time and Space are the most horrible maaya that is held aloft only by
> one's
> >ego.  This is samsaara.  If time is an illusion why investigate it?
> >Discussing and fighting on vyavahaarika level obviates the purpose of this
> >list.
> >
> >This nuisance of siding with one Guru (most likely without his knowledge)
> >and his peetam to taunt another is a terrible deviation.  If you are
> >convinced that it is maayaa kalpitha desa-kaalam then you will, like me,
> >feel very sad that this discussion goes on interminably despite the plea
> of
> >the moderators.  My humble wish is that it is given up promptly.
> >
> >With folded hands,
> >Anbu
> >_______________________________________________
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