[Advaita-l] A perspective -20

[V Subrahmanian]

Namaste Anbu ji,

There appears to be a need for some clarifications on your observations.
Pl. permit me to make some points in [ ]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Sadanandaji,
>
> Pranaams.
>
> Since you have said it was your last posting, I suppose this response of
> mine would be for the benefit of the readers.
>
> Quote: "No knowledge can take place without the mind, including
> self-knowledge."
>
> This is not correct.  Self-awareness is not dependent on the mind for such
> realization is an inalienable right of every jeeva and therefore cannot be
> conditioned.


[ There is in Advaita Vedanta a distinction made between 'svarUpa jnAnam'
and 'vRtti jnAnam'.  The former is nitya and aparoksha and is not in need of
the mind.  However, the latter arises/is possible ONLY with the
instrumentality of the mind.  While a jnAni and an ajnAni have svarupa
jnanam what differentiates the jnani from the other is this:

The jnani, owing to his sadhana under a Guru, has trained his mind and made
the 'akhanDAkAra vritti' jnAnam possible.  This special vritti which has the
Atma for its form destroys the avidya aavaraNam and itself gets destroyed.
The example given is the 'veTTiyAn's kombu'.  He kindles the fire in the
grave yard with this kombu and finally consigns the kombu too into the
fire.  You know this.  But this is a must.  It is this vRtti jnAnam that
requires the mind mandatorily.  manasaiva anu drashTavyam, buddhigraahyam
attendriyam, etc are just two of the hundreds of shruti and smriti passages
that insist on the inevitable, unavoidable, instrumentality of the mind for
attaining self-realization.

In an ajnAni this Vritti has not taken place and the avidya aavaraNam has
therefore not gone and so he continues in ignorance.  For him the svarupa
jnanam though available as a birth right, is not experienced distinctly like
the jnani does.  It is all mixed up with samsaric vrittis and that is what
keeps him in samsara.  The jnani, even though can engage in worldly affairs,
knows to discriminate between the svarupa jnanam and the vritti jnanams of
worldly affairs and acts without losing his realized state.  The Panchadashi
has several shlokas to demonstrate this.  Even the Vivekachudamani has such
verses.

Even for Ramana Bhagavan the death experience that launched him into
realization took place only thru the instrumentality of the mind.  It cant
be otherwise.  If there is no mind, a human and a stone are non different.
Atma chaitanyam is all pervading and is in and thru all things, both
sentient and insentient.  All sentient beings have this thing called
'chidAbhAsa' the reflected consciousness and that is what distinguishes them
from inanimate objects.  While only the former can hope to get
self-realization, the latter do not have that possibility.  ]



>  A person has misidentification by ignorance due to the play of
> Maya.  Mind is a tool of Maya if I am allowed to put it that way. Guru
> removes the ignorance and the misidentification is destroyed and the Self
> is
> revealed.  The form and manner in which the Guru removes the ignorance is
> not to be asserted in any particular way.
>

[Even the best Guru can remove one's ignorance only thru the instrumentality
of the mind.  The upadesha can work only if there is a prepared mind.  In
the absence of the prepared mind no Atma jnanam can take place.  It is
another thing that the Guru can help preparing the mind very rapidly.  But
ultimately Atman realization is possible only thru the mind.  That is the
teaching of Shankaracharya's Advaita thru the Bhashyams.]


The word belief is often used euphemistically indicating that it
> makes no sense.  All Bhaagavathaas believe that the Gopis got release in
> their play with Lord Krishna but such would not be release for some who
> would hold that the intellect by its dissection and discovery alone is the
> liberator.
>

[There is in the Bhagavatam this verse of the Gopika:  na khalu gopikaa
nandano bhavaan. sakala dehinaam antaraatma dRk. This means: the gopis
realised Krishna not as the child of Yashodha but as the Saakshi of
everyone's intellect.  It is this realization that makes them different from
others.]


> The reason I took the trouble to post my commentary on
> Sivaanandalahari is to show that our AachaaryaaL was very much emphatic on
> the bhakthi maarga and insisted on the surreder at the lotus feet of
> ParamEswara.
>
> Truly the mind has the dual role of hiding the 'I' and then finding it out!
> One can play by its rule OR surrender to the Guru and get relieved of this
> mind.  It is a choice.  The reason a person would surrender to a Guru is to
> relieve himself of the thaapathrayam and nothing else. The Guru will kill
> the mind rather than delight it with his feedings.  Actually the real Guru
> will make the sishya cry and cry by putting down his ego and dumping it.
> The
> death of this mind which is the root cause of thaapathrayam, alone is the
> liberation.
>

[All this only means that the troublesome mind is tamed and rendered pure so
that Atman realization can take place.  Without the medium of the mind no
one can get realization.  This is the Vedanta Siddhanta that is inviolable.
There is no escape from this method.  Whether it is bhakti marga or jnana
marga, this alone is the way.  Pl look into the verses 24 and 25 of the 13th
Chapter of the Bhagavadgita with the Acharya's Bhashyam and preferably with
Anandagiri's teeka. ''dhyAnena Atmani pashyanti kechid aatmaanam
aatmana...Here the word Atmani in the saptami means: 'in the intellect,
buddhau'.  It will clarify the Vedantic position as taught by
Shankaracharya.]

My intention is to bring out the traditional Advaitic position on the
subject and definitely not to counter the views expressed by you.

Warm regards,
subrahmanian.v

>
>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 3:05 AM, Kuntimaddi Sadananda <
> ksadananda108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Even in vyavahaarika sattha *we all know who we are* without the medium
> > of
> > > the mind.
> > >
> > > Shree Anbu -PraNAms
> >
> >
> >
> > This may be my last mail on this topic since I had discussed the role of
> > the
> > mind in the previous posts.
> >
> >
> >
> > No. from my understanding what you say is not correct. No knowledge can
> > take
> > place without the mind, including self-knowledge. There is no mind in the
> > suShupti. Mind is needed even to know that I am ignorant. Only in the
> > waking
> > state when the mind is awake, I make a statement that I did not know
> > anything in the deep sleep state, since mind was not there to know that I
> > was ignorant at that time. Sureswara discusses this point eloberately in
> > his
> > Naiskarmya Siddhi.
> >
> >
> >
> > In vyavahaara, I identify with the BMI where ahankaara which is part of
> > antaHkaraNa or Mind in general term with identification as I am this,
> where
> > this includes starting with intellect, mind and body- So without the
> mind,
> > I
> > would do not know who I am is. Mind is absent in the deep sleep state or
> it
> > is in potential form - so is my notion of who am I. I do not know even
> > ignorance too since mind is absent. With the mind present no realization
> -
> > says amRitabindu Upanishad. This has been analyzed by Sureshwara and
> > Vidyaranya exhaustively.
> >
> >
> >
> > About animals’ and in fact for that matter any body else’s realization is
> > matter of faith.  If you believe that, let that be so - a belief.  .
> > Beliefs
> > are unquestionable since they are beliefs.
> >
> >
> >
> > About the 10th story, I will be analyzing soon.
> > Hari Om!
> > Sadananda
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > In the vexed example the intellect never found the tenth man.  Is it
> not
> > > the
> > > fact?
> > >
> > > I am saying this to show that the role of the intellect is over-blown.
> >  It
> > > doesn't deserve all these credits.
> > >
> > > Even though we know who we are, thanks to the intellect we slip into
> > > believing that we are the incomplete jeeva who is born and dead.  It is
> > > only
> > > when the Guru comes to you and tells those magic words "Thath Thwam
> Asi"
> > > that you realize that you are complete and full and you are none other
> > than
> > > the Parabrahmam.  At that moment all other arguments that had justified
> > > this
> > > Mahavaakya is lost by the wayside. Intellect has no way of bringing
> about
> > > this realization.  The realization is for you, by you and of you.  And
> > when
> > > it happens the intellect and all other units of the prakrithi vanishes
> > like
> > > the mist before the sun.  In one way the realization is the actual
> > killing
> > > of the intellect.
> > >
> > > Bhagavan Ramana has given moksha to animate and inanimate objects and
> > there
> > > is no role for the intellect in them at all.  This is the prathyaksha
> > > pramaaNam for many of us.  Even though he became 'famous' because of
> his
> > > superior arguments that fed the imagination of the intellectuals in his
> > > exposition of 'who am I' he always told the seekers to give up the
> > > intellect. As you know the intellect is part of the ahamkara that one
> has
> > > to
> > > lose in order to gain Self-Realization.  It, the intellect, is a
> > hindrance
> > > to attaining mOksha.  When an ordinary person who witnessed a great
> > debate
> > > between Bhagavan and the intellectuals later approached Bhagavan and
> > asked
> > > him if he as saamaanyan will have hope because he is not versed in the
> > > Vedas
> > > etc.  And to him Bhagavan said such knowledge is no pre-requisite and
> he
> > is
> > > more than qualified for he has reached the Guru.
> > >
> > > You have to remember that the intellect delights in reordering the many
> > > into
> > > its own concept of harmony.  Take away the many, the intellect pines
> and
> > > dies.
> > >
> > >
> > > Subhamasthu.
> > > Anbu
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Kuntimaddi Sadananda <
> > >  ksadananda108 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Anbuji - PraNAms -
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Paramaarthika sattha is beyond the reach of the human mind and it
> is
> > > > > unnegateable.  Yet the intellect can infer that this is the only
> > > Reality
> > > > > that is FULL."  There are a lot of Vedic pramanas to support this
> > view
> > > > and
> > > > > I
> > > > > am sure you will agree.
> > > > >
> > > > Here is my perspective for clarification.
> > > >
> > > > The statement - Yet the intellect can infer that this is the only
> > reality
> > > > that is full - cought my attention.
> > > > I must say it is not inference by the intellect. It is the direct
> > > > perception
> > > > as in the tenth man. I see directly the light of consciousness as
> > > saakshii
> > > > as reflected illumination by the mind or intellect - just as during
> the
> > > day
> > > > time the house is bright by the reflected sunlight all over -I say I
> > see
> > > > the
> > > > the sunlight is all over even the sun is directly not seen- cannot be
> > > seen
> > > > too.
> > > > All pervading consciousness cannot be -seen-. Yet using the mind as
> > > > reflecting mediuam I see the light of consciousness that is getting
> > > > reflected in every thought that rises in the mind. I am neither known
> > nor
> > > > unknown but the very knowing principle - says Kena.
> > > >
> > > > Hari Om!
> > > > Sadananda
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The aim is to lose the ignorance of you being the tenth man.  As
> the
> > > > story
> > > > > points out the intellect is not the only way to lose that
> ignorance.
> > In
> > > > all
> > > > > our scriptures they proclaim loudly the importance of the role of
> > this
> > > > > Chaithanyam viz. the Guru that removes the ignorance.  Simply,
> > > > > "Aachaaryavaan PurushO Vedha:"
> > > > >
> > > > > In respect of the intellect please do not forget that it belongs to
> > the
> > > > > prakrthi.  The dormant intellect is of thaamasic nature getting
> swept
> > > > away
> > > > > by the forces of nature.  As Bhagavan Ramana says:  'Dehaathma
> > > > > buddhEgnyajadau samaanau'.
> > > > >
> > > > > So this intellect is sought to be awakened by means of prayer to
> > > Savithri
> > > > > by
> > > > > the Gayathri manthra.  The swabhaavam of the active intellect is to
> > > > > discriminate.  The final discrimination would be for it to
> > discriminate
> > > > > between the Real and the unreal like the kindling wood that
> releases
> > > the
> > > > > fire but as you would know that this kidling wood has also to be
> > > > consigned
> > > > > into that fire!
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet in all these processes you would notice that the intellect as
> the
> > > > inert
> > > > > entity has no way of doing anything on its own!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually the entire mithya of jagath has been perfected and upheld
> by
> > > > this
> > > > > intellect.  Can you deny it?  The intellect is much rather a
> > generator
> > > of
> > > > > falsehood and that is its swaroopa lakshanam.  One should stop
> > fooling
> > > > > around with that.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Anbu
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 7:28 AM, Kuntimaddi Sadananda <
> > > > > ksadananda108 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Shree Ambuji - PraNams
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Anbu sivam2 <
> anbesivam2 at gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Perhaps my earlier posting on Sivaanandhalahari dealing with
> this
> > > > > subject
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > three parts may be of help.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > .  Advaitha teaches us that giving up the intellect enables one
> > > > > > > to become one with this Reality.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it has already been pointed that what is to be given up
> is
> > > not
> > > > > > intellect but misconceptions of the intellect. With intellect
> only
> > > one
> > > > > has
> > > > > > to realize. Without the intellect - one is as good as animal -
> > > budhyaa
> > > > > > vihiinaaH pashubhi samaanaaH - says niiti vaakyam.
> > > > > > With mind alone one need to realize. without the mind reflecting
> > the
> > > > > > illuminating consciousness, one cannot recognize the all
> pervading
> > > > light
> > > > > of
> > > > > > consciousness. With mirro alone one can see the face - one should
> > not
> > > > > > misunderstand that image is the real. Similalry with the
> reflecting
> > > > > > consciousness in the intellect, one has to use viveka to shift
> > > > attention
> > > > > to
> > > > > > the original using that very reflection. That is what nitya
> anitya
> > > > vastu
> > > > > > viveka involves. Giving up the image as not the original is
> > sanyaasa.
> > > > > > Shifting attention to the orginal using the image reflection is
> > yoga.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The mithyaa aspect discussed was from adviata siddhi -
> definitions
> > of
> > > > > > falsity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hope this helps
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hari Om!
> > > > > > Sadananda
> > > > >  > _______________________________________________
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