[Advaita-l] yagnOpaveeta & women

[Anbu sivam2]

I completely agree with you on the role and responsibility of the father in
getting his daughter married.

I thought we were discussing if a woman is qualified to receive upanayanam.

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 5:11 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> Upanayanam or no upanayanam the girl has to be given in marriage by the
> father. If the father fails to find a suitable bridegroom for her even after
> three years of her attaining puberty then the girl is at liberty to choose
> her groom. However the father may also arrange a swayamvara at any time
> before that for the girl to choose her own bridegroom. Even if upanayanam is
> done and the Vedas are taught one cannot say that the father's responsibilty
> is not there for her marriage. Father has to find a bridegroom for the
> Veda-educated daughter also and solemnise her  marriage even if it becomes
> necessary to sell his property.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
>
> --- On Sat, 9/19/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] yagnOpaveeta & women
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Saturday, September 19, 2009, 1:05 AM
>
>
> The Manusmriti says, "streenAm upanayana-sthAnE vivAham manurabraveet".  In
> the case of women marriage is performed in place of upanayanam.  Upanayanam
> earns a man a Guru while vivaaham earns a girl her Guru (her husband).
>
> When we have doubts we approach our AachaaryaaL for clarification.  Kanchi
> AachaaryaaL had clearly said that women should not chant Gayathri Manthra.
>
> What is yagnopaveetham without Gayathri manthra?
>
> Gayathri itself is femine and is considered the mother of the Veda.  When a
> boy is initiated during the yagnopaveetham the mother is present and hears
> the Gayathri upadesam given to her son and she receives the first
> 'abhivaadhaye' from him.  No upanayanam is possible without the mother
> being
> present.
>
> It is pertinent to quote the advise of Kanchi Mahaswami when someone who
> was
> not initiated into Gayathri asked him if he can chant Gayathri.  I give
> below the incident that was published.
>
> saidevo
> 27 May 2007, 08:16 AM
> Paramacharya and Children: Baby--Lily--Billy
> author:..... SriMaTham Balu
> compiler:... T.S. Kothandarama Sarma
> book:......... Maha PeriyavaL - Darisana AnubhavangaL vol. 2, pages 177-187
> publisher:.. Vanathi Padhippaham (May 2005 Edition)
>
> Baby--Lily--Billy
>
> A veLLALa (farmer) devotee asked, "Can I chant the Gayatri Mantra?"
>
> A question that creates dharma saN^katam (embarrassment to do what is
> right)! Either of the two replies yes or no is bound to bring up criticism.
>
> SriMaTham's work is to foster and preserve the Sanatana dharmas. The
> confrontations that Bharat had in the last thousand years are numerous. The
> Bharata samudAya (public) has always had the skills to preserve its roots,
> withstanding the attacks, bending like reeds when a hurricane blows and
> then
> raising its head once again after storm passes.
>
> But then should SriMaTham intervene in every change? What is its share?
> Today's thinking becomes obsolete tomorrow and cast away. Though no one can
> control the gush of floods after it broke the dam, a day has to come when
> the floods will recede and the flow is streamlined in the river?
>
> Nobody has any knowledge if PeriyavaaL had such thoughts. But he had the
> unique ability to ease a delicate situation and leave it to its natural
> course.
>
> PeiyavaaL did not give a direct reply to the devotee. "How many children
> you
> have?" he asked.
>
> A surprising reply came from him. "By your grace I have been bestowed with
> three girls: one five years old, another three and the last six months..."
>
> Periyavaa said: "Name one girl as Gayatri, another as Sandhya and the third
> as Savitri. Call the three girls by those names. Not as Baby--Lily--Billy!
>
> "If you thus repeatedly say the names Gayatri--Sandhya--Savitri, you would
> get the puNyA (fruits) of Gayatri Mantra chanting."
>
> The devotees face displayed his happiness. Periyavaa had given him his
> anugraha of clarity of thought, when he was hesitating to take up an act
> that was against the sampradAya (tradition).
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
> sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > In all such contentious issues we have to see what the Dhramashastra
> > says. Manu says that the before marriage a girl has to be protected by
> the
> > father. Under these conditions can a girl be sent to Gurukula unless the
> > gurukula is in the girl's own home, ie. the father himself conducts the
> > Vedic studies? Manu says that the Dharma shastra is based on the Veda. It
> is
> > another thing that to maintain the superiority it is said that in case
> > of conflict the opinion of the Veda is supreme, though any such conflict
> has
> > never been reported, To my knowledge while the girl has to be always
> under
> > the father's protection the boy is alloweed to be under the protection of
> > his guru. This itself shows that this is the primary criterion why girls
> are
> > not sent to acquire Vedic education. But there have been instances where
> the
> > girls did study the Vedas from their own fathers.
> >
> > Now that the girl has to be in home where her father (in his absence of
> > father where her brother or her next caretaker) is she is given other
> > appropriate tranings (depending on what the father can provide) to equip
> her
> > for playing the required roles in life.. She may not be given access to
> the
> > Veda and the upanayanam may not be requred, if her father is not an
> acharya
> > himself.
> >
>
> Secondly we have to keep in mind that there is verse (whch I do not recall
> > at this moment but many of the mebers may know), which says that no
> smriti
> > can violate the spirit of the Manu smriti. Keeping this in mind there has
> > been liberalisation in the subsequent Yugas. Thus for the different yugas
> > there are different smritis. Parashara smriti, which is for the Kali yuga
> > has even allowed a woman to walk out of marriage and remarry, but in that
> > too there are some criteria to be met. If we keep this in mind then we
> > really do not see any real conflict among the smritis also.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 9/18/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] yagnOpaveeta & women
> > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > Date: Friday, September 18, 2009, 11:31 AM
> >
> >
> > The idea of upanayanam is to initiate Gayathri Manthra in the Vatu who is
> > getting into adolescence.  Gayathri Manthra is a prayer for inciting the
> > intellect so it knows the real from the unreal.
> >
> > This world is unreal and is held to be real by the mind.  The unreal is
> > negated only by the intellect.  So the the mind and the intellect are
> > opposites.
> >
> > In our concept the mind is a feminine personification.  The karma kaanda
> of
> > the Veda is dedicated to the Mind and the Gnana Kaanda is dedicated to
> the
> > intellect.  A girl getting into adolescence is given bhooshanam for the
> > role
> > that she has to play from then on and the boy on the contrary gets a
> > kOmaNam!
> >
> > Hope people understand why unanayanam is not done for the girls.
> >
> > *(See my second Musing based on this concept).*
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Vidyasankar Sundaresan <
> > svidyasankar at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am responding to this topic more than a month after it was posted.
> Only
> > > because it is something worth responding to.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The one ventral thing to keep in mind about all our samskAra-s is that
> > > there are many schools of thought about them, championed by very
> > respected
> > > and respectable people, but not all such views have the sanction of
> > custom
> > > and tradition.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > For example, in the dharmasUtra-s, there are varying opinions about
> > > remarriage of widows or of a woman whose husband has abandoned her.
> > Contrary
> > > to popular opinion, it is not always simply prohibited. However,
> > different
> > > AcAya-s express different opinions on when it can be allowed. You
> cannot
> > > simply say that Apastambha says one thing and vasishTha says another,
> > > therefore there is no consistency in the Hindu thinking about it.
> Rather,
> > in
> > > any particular case, the custom to be followed will have to be
> influenced
> > by
> > > whether the family follows the Apasatambha sUtra or the vasishTha
> sUtra.
> > In
> > > this case, there is no one siddhAnta that is common to all people, but
> > there
> > > are multiple choices dictated by usage and family tradition.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Similarly, in the mImAMsA sUtras, there is a discussion about who is
> > > entitled to perform yajnas for which the upanayana is a prerequisite.
> In
> > > this case, too, many respected names are cited as holding different
> > > opinions, but the final siddhAnta is unmistakably one.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding commonly seen domestic rituals, again, not everything is
> > covered
> > > in the dharmaSAstra. Even for such a central life-defining ritual as
> > > marriage, there is nothing in the dharmaSAstra texts about the woman
> > wearing
> > > a cord around her neck as a Mangalsutra. Yet, centuries old traditions
> > for
> > > all communities feature some version or the other of a Mangalsutra. One
> > > simple way of looking at these cases is to see whether the concerned
> > > dharmaSAstra prohibits a particular commonly observed ritual.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Human beings do things in a million different ways, which cannot all be
> > > anticipated and set down in iron-clad do-s and dont-s. The strength of
> > the
> > > dharmaSAstra-s is that they do not attempt to do so. Rather, family
> > > traditions, commonly observed customs, the advice of elders in the
> > community
> > > and the practices followed by the learned (SishTAcAra) are all given
> some
> > > importance.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In any situation, dharma does not stand up and announce itself, "here I
> > > am". The dhArmic way to do things has to be learned and cultivated.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Vidyasankar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I was reading a Kannada book ' saMskAragaLu mattu mAnaveeya
> moulyagaLu'
> > > > written by Sri Srikanta Kumara Swamy. In this book, it is said that
> > women
> > > > is entitled to undergo 'upanayanaM' and can do saNdhya vandanaM
> > > regularly.
> > > > Author, justifies his claim by quoting some incidents in rAmAyaNa &
> > > > other texts. Besides this, author also makes some interesting
> > > > observations on rAkshOghna hOma (a sort of ritual which we observe
> > before
> > > > house warming), kooshmAnda bali (here in South India, we cut pumpkin
> > into
> > > > pieces apply some kumkum & turmeric powder to symbolize the animal
> > > > sacrifice to dikpAlaka-s, kshetrapAla & vAstu purusha etc. in house
> > > > warming ceremony). He says these rituals are meaningless & donot have
> > any
> > > > base in dharma shAstra.
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to get more insights into this issue i.e. threading ceremony
> > to
> > > > women & saNdhyA vandana by women from the prabhuji-s.
> > > >
> > > > Kindly ignore if it is out of the scope of advaita.
> > > >
> > > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> > > > bhaskar
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