[Advaita-l] Rebirth
Vishy
vishy1962 at yahoo.com
Sun Oct 25 07:46:12 CDT 2009
Dear Anbuji
Pranams and Thanks a lot for such a wonderful and lucid explanations.
Everything thing in what you said is clear, but what I didnt understand all that well is difference between shookshma and karana sareras.
I am under impression that manas (mind) is made of three elements, Ahamkara(ego) , Chitta (record of experiences that ego experienced) and buddhi (purely logical unit). Hence basically all the other two elements are also closely linked to Ego only. If so, what is karana sareera?
Now comming to Ego, this is also a mere thought that was seeded at ver very initial stages of our life. First by parents, later it was strenthened by relatives , friends and society at large. Then everything is built arround this thought. So when you say this is karana sareera that was fine, but
as a thought it also is part of shookshma sareea (mind) only, isnt it?
"The entire universe as you see churning itself as a huge machine is due to a
mahat ahamkara which we call as Easwara. The universe is thus his body. He
is Jagannathan. He protects his own body as Jagat Rakshakan. He is the
macrocosm."
yes sir, this is quite logical extension of microcosm. But as we can see " i" as an illusiory thought at micro level Eswara aslo a bugger illusion at macro level, at least I think so. The movement small 'i' dissappears the big "I" also has to disappear ....Isnt it??
But than whats left?? pure Consciousness alone we call it 'Brahman' or is it 'shoonya' as buddhists say!!!
Finally
" Thus you cannot say all on a sudden: "I declare that I am not the manas and
from tomorrow onwards I am going to behave as if I do not have the manas."
Such is not in the realm of possibility."
Going a step further.....
certainly one cant declare to anyone thatt from tomorrow I willbe without manas.
If it happens it happens right at this movement and not tomorrow and than there would be none to declare that ' I have reached home. But I feel it can happen to anyone at anytime by flash or it may not happen to one despite years of sadhana and search.
Such person can only be Jeevanmuktha or a person who is aware of all this illusion can still continue to play his role in the drama of life ... a karma yogi??
Pranams once agian
Just tried to express what all came to this mind, please bear with me and pardon me if I have crossed limits anywhere
Vishy
--- On Sun, 25/10/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Rebirth
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Sunday, 25 October, 2009, 4:56 PM
Dear Vishyji,
An object is something that you can can recognize as an entity apart from
you. Manas as we speak of objectively is not an entity capable of being
pointed out as an object. So you cannot tell me that such and such thing is
your manas that I can recognize. Yet we all know that each one has a manas
that is purely private that cannot be fathomed by another however much the
modern psychoanalysis can claim that it can. So much so the mind is not
defineable even though we keep trying! It is not subject to the
phenomenology indicating birth, decay and death. Yet it is born and dead on
a daily basis! (More on that later.) Thus manas is identical to the
subject!
Gnanis who have realized tell you that it, the manas, is not the subject but
an imposter, a non-entity. But as long as you are not a Gnani you do not
know that!
Thus you cannot say all on a sudden: "I declare that I am not the manas and
from tomorrow onwards I am going to behave as if I do not have the manas."
Such is not in the realm of possibility.
You can identify yourself only with something that is different from you
such as your gross body.
Your gross body is an object lending to perception to you and others as an
object. In dream time you have the subtle body that lends to perception as
an object to you as well as the others of your dream time. And the causal
body in your deep sleep is unknown to you let alone others (who do not
exist) during deep sleep but you come to know of its existence as you
describe that this entity enjoyed bliss of a peaceful sleep.
Thus you can only identity yourself only with a body and we know that it has
three different forms viz. the sthoola sareeram, the sookshma sareeram and
the kaaraNa sareeram.
In waking time all the three sareerams are present but the sthoola sareeram
is dominant.
In dream time your gross body is lying there like a log but your sookshma
sareeram is active. Thus in dream time you do not have the sthoola sareeram
but you do have the other two, namely the sookshma sareeram and the kaarana
sareeram.
In deep sleep state sookshma sareeram is also absent leaving only the
kaaraNa sareeram to be present. Without the sookshma sareeram no perception
is possible and so the world of deep sleep is one of darkness and inactivity
(for all activity involve objects). Only the SELF which is pure Aananda is
present but the kaaraNa sareeram cannot perceive it yet experiences the
Aananda!
This kaarana sareeram is actually the ego, the small 'i' which we call as
ahamkara. No karma that includes perception or the objective knowledge can
take place without this ahamkara.
The entire universe as you see churning itself as a huge machine is due to a
mahat ahamkara which we call as Easwara. The universe is thus his body. He
is Jagannathan. He protects his own body as Jagat Rakshakan. He is the
macrocosm.
You and I identity with our respective bodies and have a unique name and
form to differentiate from others and protect it from all dangers and pine
on its decay and death. Thus the identification we have is due to the
kaaraNa sareeram called the ahamkara. This is the microcosm.
I have only dealt with part of your first sentence: "Can I say all exist as
long as you are identifying yourself with manas (mind) .." I have touched
on two questions: (a) identification and (b) objective world and the manas.
My short answer is:
(a) YOU - as you speak of in relation to the world - is a body, a smaller
body in relation to a bigger variegated body called jagat; and
(b) the 'all' that you speak of is the world at large and it is what the
mind presents to you (nothing more!) You know that in deep sleep the world
(consisting of the macrocosm and the microcosm) does not exist because the
mind is absent.
I wish to continue this in many postings as the questions you have raised
are quite vast. In the meantime ask me questions if you have on what I have
written so far.
Anbu
On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 2:38 AM, Vishy <vishy1962 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Anbuji
>
>
> Can I say all exist as long as you are identifying yourself with manas
> (mind) what all you see/ perceive/ do/ happens is Maya . here 'all'
> includes pleasures / pains birth /death all inclusive
> The movement you understand this maya, drop " I" (dropping mind) and start
> witnessing everything just as witness (saakshi) than everything dissappears
> that witness(Aum) alone is the truth (Aum tat sath)... and 'you are that
> '(tat vam asi) Isnt it?
> Untill we reach that state what all we perceive/ what all we do is just
> not truth, but mind games
> Am I right, sir?? So, can I say even the devatas(who rule Indriyas and
> eshwar the karmaphala administrator also projection of mind??
>
> Pranams
> Vishy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 24/10/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Rebirth
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Saturday, 24 October, 2009, 4:46 PM
>
>
> Dear Vishyji,
>
> Pranas and the Panchendriyas are referred to the devatas who occupy those
> positions.
>
> When someone has a dehaathma buddhi he sees the jagat as real and performs
> karma in pursuit of happiness and in turn is governed by Easwara who
> administers karmaphala. Yes this is duality which hold that jeeva and
> Brahman as different. Dhukkam exists in dwaitha prapancham. Dwaitha
> vedanta of Ramanuja and Madhwas have their own concepts on the release of
> jeeva from samsaara. Advaita has its own.
>
> Anbu
>
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 5:19 AM, Vishy <vishy1962 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Anbuji,
> >
> > Namskaram
> >
> > Pl bear with me for the questions that may appear stupid , but
> nevertheless
> > throw some more light on the following aspects, please
> >
> >
> > What is exactly 'Prana' , is it not just the energy (the prakruthi)??
> >
> > Are panchayandriyas not part of physicalbody...just as organs?
> >
> > "As directed by Eswara gets into another body according to karmapala" you
> > said,
> > but treating Eswara as someone sitting away accunting for all karmas
> > appears more dwaitic why even abrhamic
> >
> > Please, please dont ever conclude I am critical or sceptical ..... I am
> > trying get how Advaita vedanta sees all these things whose very basic is
> "
> > aham Brahmasmi' and asserts realizing that is that waht amounts to mukthi
> >
> > As I said earler , my little knwoledge about the whole vedanta/
> scriptures
> > is from english translations and books like that of swami Vivekananda,
> swami
> > Ramateertha etc. may be due to this limited knwoledge I am asking these
> > questions so that I can get the whole picture
> >
> > Pranams
> > Vishy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Sat, 24/10/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Rebirth
> > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > Date: Saturday, 24 October, 2009, 12:39 PM
> >
> >
> > Vishyji,
> >
> > When the gross body is dead the praana leaves the body carrying with it
> the
> > mind and the panchendrias and is directed by Easwara into another body
> > as the person's karmaphala warrants.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Vishy <vishy1962 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Michealji, Sadananadaji, Sunilji, vyasji, Anbuji and other learned
> > > members
> > >
> > > Pranams to all. As a novice to scriptures, I would like to raise genune
> > > doubt so that I can get calrified by the learned
> > >
> > > Generally we all beleive in the theory of rebirth and that is very
> basic
> > of
> > > karma theroy too, but I am not clear as what is that dies at the time
> of
> > > physical death of this body and what is that takes rebirth??
> > >
> > > All of us are made of the physical body (made of five elements ) , Mind
> > > (Manas...made of chitta , buddhi and ahankara) and the Atman( the
> > > consciouness, the real life)
> > >
> > > The physical body which is made of the five elements of nature goes
> back
> > > once burried or cremated
> > > The Atman which is teh Bathman itself is common in all living beings
> that
> > > is never born or never dies
> > > Than we are left with only the mind.... here chitta is storage of all
> > > thoughts and experiences, buddhi is the intelligence and ahankara is an
> > > illusion. Out of these which, I am not able to understand, takes
> > rebirth!!!
> > > These three can be at the most can be contenets, but what is the
> > container
> > > that carries?
> > >
> > >
> > > Please dont think I am sceptical, but this is genune doubt for which I
> > > couldnt
> > > get answer anywhere?
> > >
> > >
> > > Pranams once again
> > > Vishy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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