[Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive

[Michael Shepherd]

Anbuji

Thanks for the invitation, but I want to draw the sages out of their caves
before I put my views and get slapped down as an Abrahmanic Abrahamic.. :)

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Anbu
sivam2
Sent: 17 October 2009 12:58
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
supportive



Michaelji,

Quote: "The 'four states' ...to their mutual benefit in the sadhana.."

The ultimate benefit is survival.  Please explain how they enable mutual
survival especially the 'survival' of the Turia state because of the other
three states.  Tell us also of other benefits if any.

On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Michael Shepherd <
michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> Dear Vishyji
>
> The 'four states' are quoted ad infinitum. What I am asking for is new
> thinking  under Advaita, on how these states may interact -- as they
> obviously do -- to their mutual benefit in the sadhana..
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Vishy
> Sent: 17 October 2009 06:21
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
> supportive
>
>
> Dear Michealji
>
>
> I am certainly not a scholor who can quote from any scriptures, but this
is
> what I would like to say...
>
> Yes. we all undergo the three states regularly in everyday life without
> even noticing that we are in such a state. If you can witness all these
> three states , standing apart, that state I would call the fourth state or
> Turiya
>
> The one who witness all these three states is the real 'you' and that
> witness is same in everyone
>
>
> This is what my little understanding is...pl correct me if I am wrong
>
>
> Pranams
> Vishy
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 15/10/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
supportive
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Thursday, 15 October, 2009, 5:17 PM
>
>
> Hey guys --
>
> All very interesting, but way off my original question.. each day, we all
> go through these three 'states'.
> We've read our Gaudapadakarika, I assume; Shankara has told us that all is
> illusion under Brahman's powers of veiling and revealing. I'm asking
whether
> we can see a mutual support -- each day -- between these states which if
> recognised, may aid our sadhana.
>
> That these are contained in the 'fourth state' is axiomatic. But is there,
> in the light of science and Brahman, something to be learned --
particularly
> about the function of the dreaming state -- which is not immediately
> apparent fom the shastra, but which is entirely in line with the shastra ?
>
> I don't want to mention my own experiences, in case they are
> misunderstood.. If this question means nothing to you, then just leave it
> aside..
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of
> Kathirasan K
> Sent: 15 October 2009 12:17
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
> supportive
>
>
> Namaste Sunilji,
>
> Thanks for the reply and further questions. What's more important than
your
> questions are the following questions:
>
> 1. Is the Advaita Vedanta tradition deficient in sadhanas such that we
have
> to borrow Bandhas and Asanas from the Natha Sampradaya to attain 'mental
> tranquility'? If yes, does it not mean that the vedanta tradition is
> deficient. If No, shouldn't shishtas lead by example to show 'murkhas' or
> 'modern minds' like me the path that has been laid by Bhagavadpada
Shankara
> and his disciples to be a complete self-sufficient soteriological system
> relevant to all regardless of time.
>
> 2. If Yoga Taravali is a text by Adi Shankara, then the author of
> Aparokshanubhuti cannot be the same person. Or vice versa. Anyone who has
> read both texts would definitely be confused if the texts came from the
> same
> pen.
>
> I am not asking these questions to question the existing tradition but for
> the sake of many seekers who have found such teachings very confusing. For
> any mumukshu who values shrotriyatvam the study of scriptures, as
svadhyaya
> or with a teacher, is essential. When faced with such information, one's
> shraddha in the tradition may be shaken. I have met such people in my
life.
> So pls forgive me if my intentions appear controversial or if it had hurt
> your feelings.
>
> In any case, I am not here to fight for a cause or to establish my view.
> Personally as a Jijnasu I find the practices of Hatha Yoga helpful in Kaya
> siddhi and citta shuddhi to a certain extent. However, I fully understand
> that the knowledge of the Upanishads handled by a shrotriya brahmanishta
> alone will bring you to the goal of jivanmukti. And also that Vedanta
needs
> no support from other sampradayas to improve it further. It is a complete
> soteriological system that does not need the value addition of other
> darshanas nor sampradayas. The prasthana trayi is complete.
>
> This is my last post on this thread because it is not my aim to establish
> 'my' view. It is for the like-minded seekers to think if they want to and
> for the rest to press the delete button upon reaching the end of this
post.
> :) Again thanks for reading and apologies if it hurt.
>
> asampradayavit sarva shastravidopi murkhavad eva upekshaniya
> Kathirasan
>
>
> 2009/10/15 Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>
>
> > Namaste,
> >
> > If I have understood the controversy well then I have a few queries.
> >
> > 1)
> >  Where did you find the Vedanta denying the Tantra?
> > 2)
> > Is Sreevidya not Tantra (Samayachara)?
> > 3)
> > After reading Yogataravali do you still think the Meditation without
> Hatha
> > practice to be ineffective?
> > 4)
> > Where did Sankara deny Hatha yoga?
> >
> > (For example, Sankhya does not speak about Ishvara as Ishvara is asiddha
> > but Sankhya never expressed doubt about existence of Ishvara. So also
> Hatha
> > is not a must as the same effect can be obtained by direct meditation
but
> > the effect of Haha has never been  denied.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Kathirasan K <brahmasatyam at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Kathirasan K <brahmasatyam at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
> supportive
> > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 8:04 PM
> >
> > Namaste ji,
> >
> > Yes, I have read the book which was published by Krishnamacarya. I
> > qualified
> > in my earlier post that my premises were prasthana traya and not the
many
> > works attributed to the pen of Shankara.
> >
> > 2009/10/15 Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>
> >
> > > Dear Kathirajanji,
> > >
> > > While Vidyasankarji will reply to you I would suggest that you may
have
> a
> > > look at the Yogataravali if not done so earlier.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Kathirasan K <brahmasatyam at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Kathirasan K <brahmasatyam at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
> > supportive
> > > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 6:38 PM
> > >
> > > Namaste Vidyashankarji,
> > >
> > > My earlier comment was made having studied, practiced and taught some
> the
> > > teachings of Hatha Yoga Pradipika, and also other Hatha Yoga shastras
> > > (gheranda samhita, shiva samhita, hatharatnavali etc). From the
> > standpoint
> > > that you come from, obviously any practice can be fused into Advaita
> > > Vedanta, even if it may be islamic or christian. To me this is the
> plight
> > > of
> > > modern vedanta where you don't find an uncompromising Shankara
anymore.
> > >
> > > But I am in complete agreement that Shankara had no issues with Yoga
> > > Sadhana
> > > but it is obvious that he had issues with Yoga Darshana as a
> > soteriological
> > > system compiled/taught by Patanjali.
> > >
> > > I would be very interested to know if Jalandhara, Uddiyana & mula
> bandhas
> > > were taught by shankara in his Bhasyas as a valid means to advaita
atma
> > > darshana or citta shuddhi. Or was it that the acarya realised that the
> > > prasthana traya lacked teachings/practices to bring about mental
> > > tranquility?
> > >
> > > 2009/10/14 Vidyasankar Sundaresan <svidyasankar at hotmail.com>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Swamiji is an example of a Vedantin who has fused the practices of
> > > Hatha
> > > > > Yoga which is part of the Shaiva Natha Sampradaya into Vedanta. It
> is
> > > > very
> > > > > interesting to note how Vedanta and Tantra have merged in spite of
> > its
> > > > > teachings being mutually exclusive during the times of Shankara
and
> > > > > Matsyendranatha (the principal teacher of the Hatha Yoga School).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This opinion seems to be based altogether on the artificial
> boundaries
> > > > created by a section of modern academic scholarship on Indian
> > traditions.
> > > > Can you tell me where haTha yoga begins and ends, whether it was
> > > exclusive
> > > > to the Saiva Natha Sampradaya and whether it came to influence
> Advaita
> > > > Vedanta from some external source at some point of time?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please read the brahmasUtra bhAshya under the sUtras "AsInas
> sambhavAt"
> > > >  etc, where Sankara bhagavatpAda concludes that the yoga SAstras
> teach
> > > many
> > > > Asana-s, beginning with padmAsana, as a means to promote ease of
> > > > concentration in brahmavicAra. I have had multiple occasions to
point
> > out
> > > > the various references in the sUtrabhAshya, gItAbhAshya and the
major
> > > > upanishad bhAshyas, which exhibit an intimate familiarity with and
> even
> > > > approval of yoga practices and traditions. I have also pointed out
> > > numerous
> > > > times that this is not limited to pAtanjala yoga sUtras and the
> > > "official"
> > > > yoga-darSana.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I will leave the question of Vedanta and Tantra and their fusion
> aside
> > > for
> > > > the time being. Here is a parallel point to ponder. Take the
> taittirIya
> > > > upanishat reference - sa ya esho'ntar hRdaya AkASaH | tasminn ayaM
> > > purusho
> > > > ... vyapohya SIrshakapAle | ... Please read Sankara bhagavatpAda's
> > > > commentary on this passage. What kind of upAsana do you think is
> being
> > > > described here? What would you imagine are the physical correlates
of
> > the
> > > > description in this source text of vedAnta? Is such upAsana then
> > > > upanishadic-vedAntic or tAntric/haTha yogic?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Suffice it to say that if you think you can identify boundaries
based
> > on
> > > > textual references, you had better read the texts in the original in
> > > great
> > > > depth and not rely on secondary or derivative scholarship. And don't
> > you
> > > > think someone like Swami Abhinava Vidyatirtha, the Sringeri
> > > Sankaracharya,
> > > > had more knowledge of the various traditions to know what is
mutually
> > > > exclusive and therefore contradictory versus what is acceptable and
> > > > traditionally part of the life of a genuine vedAntin?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Vidyasankar
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Kathirasan
> > > _______________________________________________
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