[Advaita-l] Sankara on sannyAsa for Steadiness in GYAna (was Re: Jivanmukti - Jnana plus Sannyasa pt 5)

[Bhaskar YR]

sAshtAnga praNAms Sri Vidya prabhuji
Hare Krishna

Sri Vidya prabhuji

No arguments about how jnAna will eventually dawn upon the doer of 
nishkAma karma

bhaskar :

thanks for this clarification...however, there is a trend going here that 
Atma jnAna can happen in any Ashrama but to get the jeevan mukti (it seems 
they think that it is a subsequent state to Atma jnAna), a Ashrama called 
saNyAsa is inevitable. They say janakAdi kings were not jeevanmukta-s coz. 
they have not embraced saNyAsa formally..vidhura & dharmavyAdha-s jnAna is 
only exceptional case etc.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

but there is still a distinction to be appreciated.

bhaskar :

I think this distinction is visible only before the dawn of jnAna that too 
in the eyes of ajnAni-s like me...Yes, we could see the nivrutti jnAni-s 
and pravrutti jnAni-s on the same stage playing a different role...but as 
far as the jnAni is concerned he is ekaM & adviteeyam.  A snoring sleeper 
and a silent sleeper are in the eyes of waker only!! as far as sleeper is 
concerned..it is ONLY sleep.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

The jnAnI who seems to perform nishkAma karma is not really performing any 
karma at all, because he has transcended karma. There are many documented 
cases of other jnAnis who are seen to not perform any karma at all for 
extended periods of time and who often get labeled as being mad, by 
so-called "normal" society.

bhaskar :

That is beautifully said prabhuji..I whole heartedly agree with 
you...pravruttena chet lOkasaMgrahArthaM nivruttena chet jeevamAtrArthaM 
taM jnAnAgnidagdhakarmANaM says shankara in geeta bhAshya.  It may appear 
that janakAdi kings were doing karma even after jnAna, but in reality they 
were not!!  coz. as you rightly pointed out they have transcended the very 
notion of katrutva and hence no karma for them.  I think with this view 
only we can justify the somany (seemingly) rigorous activities of jnAni-s 
& jagadguru saNyAsi-s in this lOka vyavahAra. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

In contrast, someone who performs nishkAma karma because that is the 
advice given by the Gita and the Guru has still not transcended karma. He 
or she is on the path to cittaSuddhi, 

bhaskar :

and as you know prabhuji this chitta shuddhi path prescribed through shama 
damAdi sAdhana to vividisha saNyAsi-s also who is still an ajnAni..So, in 
sanyAsa Ashrama also there are ajnAni doing sarva karma saNyAsa & pursuing 
jnAna mArga.  And without jnAna mere embracing saNyAsa Ashrama would not 
fetch us the mOksha says clearly shankara.  So, IMHO, advice given by 
geeta & guru applicable to both karmayOgi-s and vividisha saNyAsi-s.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

but I still fail to see how such karmaphala sannyAsa rUpa karma yoga = 
jnAna nishThA

bhaskar :

A paripakva karma yOgi through chitta shuddhi would attain the jnAna 
nishTha prabhuji. As you said above, a pravrutti jnAni though appears 
doing nishkAma karma he is jnAna nishTha only coz. he is nirAshrita and 
saMkalpavarjita.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Please also see how Sankara bhagavatpAda's bhAshya describes the jnAna 
nishThA -AtmAnAtma-vishaya viveka vijnAnavatAM brahmacaryASramAd eva 
kRtasaMnyAsAnAM vedAnta vijnAna suniScitArthAnAM paramahaMsa 
parivrAjakANAM brahmaNy eva avastithAnAm - not only is the saMnyAsa of the 
paramahaMsa parivrAjaka privileged here, there is the additional 
qualification that such a person has renounced everything directly from 
the student stage itself, without ever getting involved in family and 
social life through marriage, firm in the knowledge of the vedAnta and 
ever established in brahman. 

bhaskar :

Yes prabhuji, and elsewhere shankara also gives his definition on 'parA 
jnAna nishTha'..in geeta bhAshya 18-55 he says:  shAstrAchAryOpadeshena 
jnAnOtpatti paripAkahetuM sahakAri kAraNaM buddhivishuddhatvAdi cha 
apekshya janitasya kshetrajna paramAtma ekatvaM jnAnasya, katrutvAdikAraka 
bhedabuddhi nibandhana sarva karma saMnyAsa sahitasya svAtmAnubhava 
nishchaya rUpENa yat avasthAnaM sA parA jnAna nishThA ityuchyate. Ofcourse 
here too shankara says sarva karma saMnyAsa sahitasya..and as you know 
this sarvakarma saNyAsa is arthasiddhaM for a gruhasthAshrami also and for 
external world he may doing the actions & in reality it is inaction only. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

While I haven't been following every single detail in this debate on 
sannyAsa and jnAna and mukti so far, I believe that this understanding of 
what is called jnAna nishThA (along with the implicit adhikAra bheda for a 
karmI, a karmayogI and a jnAnI) is getting lost in the discussion.

bhaskar :

I can understand the ahdikAra bheda for karmI..but Kindly let me know 
where shankara discusses adhikAra bheda in karmayOgi-s and jnAni-s?? 
kindly let me know.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Yes, theoretically, jnAna can dawn at any time on anybody, but most 
contemporary expressions of this stance always seem to devalue the 
traditional sannyAsASrama. Why? Moreover, there is an intrinsic value 
judgement being made against those who have formally renounced and wear 
ochre. Why?


bhaskar :

No prabhuji, I donot know about others, but my contention here is not 
that...How can I devalue the traditional saNyAsAshrama when my parama 
guruji himself was an orthodox saNyAsi to the core!!  But at the same time 
I donot want to be part with those who declare : there is no possibility 
of mukti without formal saNyAsa.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

If there were really no strong correlation between jnAna and/or jnAna 
nishThA and saMnyAsa, then why does anybody need the formal institution of 
renunciation in the first place? Why should there even be a vidhi in the 
SAstra regarding saMnyAsa? On whom is that vidhi actually operable? Why 
should Sankara bhagavatpAda club saMnyAsa along with the qualities of 
Sama, dama etc in the bRhadAraNyaka bhAshya? 

bhaskar :

prabhuji, I am afraid, you are missing the very purpose of this 
discussion...Nowhere I tried to belittle the saNyAsa, nowhere I tried to 
devalue the jnAna nishTha in saNyAsa Ashrama...My ONLY contention is after 
dawn of jnAna saNyAsa is NOT A MANDATORY VIDHI and it is left to 
prArabhdha karma of that jnAni due to which one may continue to do karma 
like janaka or one may retire to forest for vidvat saNyAsa like 
yAjnAvalkya...

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar