[Advaita-l] sanyAsa in shankara vedAnta - Reply -3

[Bhaskar YR]

bhaskar :

And this jnAni's jnAna consists in relation to action in such a way that : 
he sees inaction in action, and 
action in inaction, he is the wisest of all men, he has a poised mind and 
he alone has done all that had to be done (geeta 4-18). Shankara in his 
bhAshya explains thus : the wise one sees action in inaction, and inaction 

in action, seeing that all thought of action, means of action etc. are in 
the field of avidyA alone, since engagement in action or desisting from it 

both depend on the doing agent (kartru), and never affect the Reality of 
Atman. 

Sri S prabhuji : 

Shankara also clarifies here what a sannyasi means -jeevanmatraarthach 
eshtah - he is sannyasi and his stirrings are meany ONLY TO MAINTAIN LIFE 
IN THE BODY. Nothing more. 

bhaskar : 

I am sorry prabhuji, I dont know what sort of argument is this..I've been 
seeing right from the top that you simply providing counter quotes (for 
which I dont have any objection) without saying anything on the bhAshya 
vAkya-s which goes against your pet theory...Yes, ofcourse I agree a 
formal saNyAsi who OPTED for nivrutti mArga to sustain his body (jeevana 
mAtrArthaM) would beg..but see how A PRAVRUTTI JNANI DOES HIS ACTION..that 
is what I quoted for which you showed me a blank slate :-))  Please 
onceagain note I am accommodating BOTH PRAVRUTTI & NIVRUTTI jnAni-s and 
THEIR RESPECTIVE SEEMING ACTIONS based on shankara bhAshya..whereas you 
are comfortably avoiding pravrutti jnAni-s who do the action for the sake 
of lOka saMgraha...I hope, it is not because of your prejudices.   

bhaskar : 

____________ _________ _
Now the important question is, is this state of mind, is this samyag jnAna 

is restricted to ONLY people in a saNyAsa Ashrama?? The people who wear 
ochre cloth, running Ashrams and parading with n' no. of disciples 
(shishyakOti) are the ONLY custodians of this Atma jnAna?? If someone 
says 'yes' to this question than it is really strange and regrettable that 

they have completely misconstrued the very ideal of saNyAsa 'as taught' by 

our shankara bhagavatpAda. 

Sri S prabhuji : 

Once again it is regrettable that you are erecting more strawmen 
needlessly. Shankara never talks about "running ashramas and parading with 
a number of disciples" - why are you so keen on de-riding these Exalted 
Souls and their ashrama - not all Paramahamsas teach or have ashramas and 
even if they do - they dont need to "parade with disciples" - the latter 
naturally flock to them, as in the case of the Sage of Kanchi and Bhagwan 
Ramana. It is unfortunate to hear these type of comments about an 
institution your own paramaGuru belongs to. 

bhaskar : 

See this is how you are reading my mail!!??  have I anywhere mentioned the 
above names prabhuji??  When my parama guruji himself a vairAgya 
personified, a saNyAsi in all respects, how can I belittle the sanyAsa & 
its nobility?? When I said about running ashrama-s & parades, I had 
charlatans and escapists in mind...Atleast, henceforth, I request you to 
be bit careful before passing the above type of sweeping comments on me. 

bhaskar : 

Here point to be noted that for paramArtha jnAni, paramahamsa 
parivrAjakatva can come naturally without any effort of his own!! But this 
does not mean jnAni should invariably take formal saNyAsa & follow the 
Ashrama rules religiously! ! As said earlier, even after jnAna, he may 
continue to be in his respective Ashrama or may opt for vidvat saNyAsa 
like yAjnAvalkya or he may became atyAshrami like vAchaknavi or samvarta. 
So, there cannot be any hardbound rule for that jnAni to insist on the 
formal saNyAsa. Shankara's clarification on this point in geeta bhAshya 
(commentary on 2-10 & introduction to the geeta verse 2-11) is worth 
noting. Here bhAshyakAra says, jnAni can perform his pUrvAshrama duties 
'even' after the dawn of jnAna just for the sake of lOka saMgraha like 
janaka & bhagavAn krishna etc. but we should not read much into because 
jnAni transcends the very notion of kartru, karma & kriya. 

Sri S prabhuji : 

Bhaskar-ji - as a matter of fact it is in this very commentary that 
Shankara in his bhashya even leaves open the possibility about men like 
Janaka (still engaged in action) being self-realized - "On the other hand 
if it is held theey were NOT enlightened the passage may be explained to 
mean that Janaka and others like him achieved samsiddhi, purity of mind by 
means of actions dedicated to God."! 

bhaskar : 

The second option shankara gives here after saying : 'janakAdayaH 
tattvavidOpi' that means in the very first instance shankara clearly 
admits that janaka was a tattva vida..and for the arguments sake shankara 
continues and say IF IT IS HELD THEY WERE NOT, that means even if a 
pUrvapaxi held this view, shankara says we go with it & gives an 
explanation to that scenario also...Shankara like this way argues with 
vijnAna vAdins also as if it is his own view...So, you have to be little 
bit vigilent while quoting these type of bhAshya to prove your point.   

Again, elsewhere shankara declares clearly that Arjuna has become 
'saMyagdarshi' after geetOpadesha...so, here there is no room for any 
alternatives as in the case of janaka prabhuji...Arjuna is a kshatriya & 
he got the saMyagjnAna, there ends the matter prabhuji... 

bhaskar : 

"But for some reason, if this renouncement of actions is impossible (karma 

parityAga asaMbhave) he still continues to engage himself in action for 
the sake of lOka saMgraha but without any attachment to those actions and 
their results. 
Here shankara could see the possibility of ' karma parityAga asaMbhavata' 
in some cases of jnAni...there might be plenty of reason for this"(a) if 
this jnAni is a King & due to his sarva karma saNyAsa his own 
people may suffer because of lack of proper leadership
(b) if his own responsibility is not completed
(c) if he is physically not fit enough to practice the rigors of saNyAsa 
Ashrama
(d) if there is dependents like aged parents 
(e) if there is no concurrence from the better half:-)) ( this is my 
excuse for not taking saNyAsa :-)) atleast I've someone to blame for my 
dodging:-))

Sri S prabhuji : 

Here Shankara first of all makes it clear that what he means by sannyasa 
is to give up everything save the bare minimal "stirrings necessary for 
the mere maintenance of the body" and (because of the context of the 
verse) he allows a concession by mentioning "for some reason"...showing 
that this is an exceptional situation - 

bhaskar : 

it is the matter of fact that in the history of vedAnta these exceptional 
situations are more than the normal cases!!  and shankara never ever says 
these are all ONLY exception cases once in a blue moon day :-))  so your 
reading of exception cases is concocted & fabricated one to the plain 
bhAshya vAkya.  When uddAlaka serves brahma vidyA to his son shvetaketu, 
he does not utter a single word that it is an exception case I am teaching 
brahma vidya to you...when yamadharma teaching 'mrutyu rahasya' to kid 
nachiketa, he does not remotely meant that it is an exceptional case, when 
geetachArya given upadesha to 'kshatriya' arjuna did not hint that it is 
one in billion cases, yAjnAvalkya who taught brahma vidya to his wife 
maitreyi did not bring your statement of 'exception', shankara who clearly 
said anyAshrami-s like vidhura, dharmavyAdya, raikva, vAchaknavi, 
saMvarta, did not say they have achieved ultimate under exception 
circumstances.  So, it is more than evident prabhuji that you are 
concocting something & trying to push through the bhAshya vAkya. 

And even if I agree to your speculation that it is only in exceptional 
situation shankara allows the alternative, it is morethan enough for me to 
discard your theory that SANYAASA IS INVARIABLY THE MUST REQUISITE FOR 
JNANA..So, neither of the alternatives helpful to you prabhuji.   

Sri S prabhuji : 

by no means can this be extended to the innumerable situations and excuses 
that you allude to by extension. 

bhaskar : 

My dear prabhuji, go back & kindly study bhAshya in detail..nirgama 
asaMbhavAt lOka saMgrahachikeershaya, shishta vigarhaNa parijaheershaya vA 
pUrvavat karmaNi abhipravruttOpi nishkriyAtma darshanasaMpannatvAt naiva 
kiMchit karOti saH..do you need more proof than this to prove a jnAni can 
still continue work (in the loukika view point) and at the same time he 
does nothing??!!  shravaNa kumAra engaged himself by serving his aged 
parents, shankara took his mother's permission before taking saNyAsa, 
paramahaMsa married as per the order of bhagavati, ramaNa didnot take 
formal saNyAsa...So, my view is justified here because shankara himself 
admits the possibility of nirgama asaMbhavata and karma parityAga 
asambhavata..   

Sri S prabhuji : 

It is incongruous to say he is a "Knower" of Brahman that he knows his 
Self to be nitya shuddha mukta Atma and then say he feels responsible to 
care for aged parents and as a King( a Prime Minister in todays' age?!) 
feels his people will suffer - with this type of reasonings no person can 
ever take to sannyasa - it will simply be impossible to be a grhastha and 
not have ANY responsibility or duty. This is repeatedly what Shankara 
stresses that ONLY to a knower can there be the conviction that by 
sannyasa he is not being derelict
in his duties. All these seeming "responsibilities" stem from a false 
belief of an ignorant man that it is "he" and not Ishwara who is taking 
care of his near and dear ones or his subjects, as the case may be. You do 
bring about an excellent and very important ethical point of practicality 
here that permission of a spouse is considered necessary even for a Knower 
to renounce and Sureshwaracharya makes this quite explicity in his Br.Up 
vartika (even though Shankara does not say so). 

bhaskar : 

You are jumping fast from practicals of lOka vyavahAra to pAramArthika 
satya..shankara did not say his mother, you are mother only to this body 
not me 'Atman', when she asked shankara to be there beside his death 
bed!!?? and shankara has not assured her Ishwara will take care of 
her...so it is clear that you are simply talking only for the arguments 
sake without any base in shankara bhAshya..coz. you are simply ignoring 
the reasons which shankara himself gives in his bhAshya. 

bhaskar : 

And finally, in chAndOgya (2-23-1 concluding sentence) bhAshya, which 
myself & sri Sastri prabhuji quoted earlier clearly gives a 'clean chit' 
to gruhasthAshrama jnAni to whom pArivrAjyaM is 'artha siddhaM'. Though 
shankara himself states in this very bhAshya that this is not to show the 
importance of any Ashrama and its respective phala, it is worth to note 
that shankara declaration that by default a gruhasta jnAni would get the 
status of pArivrAjyaM. 

Sri S prabhuji : 

Shankara nowhere declares that a grhasta jnani would get the "status of a 
parivrajyam" - he emphasizes that a grhasta who achieves Self-knowledge 
has to resort to parivrajyam i.e. renounce his home. 

bhaskar : 

FOR YOUR READY REFERENCE ONCEAGAIN : 

ETENA GRUHASTHASYA EKATVA VIJNAANE SATI PAARIVRAAJYAM ARTHA SIDDHAM...( 
please note this is his CONCLUDING REMARKS on this chAdOgya maNtra...WOULD 
YOU MIND TO EXPLAIN ME : what is this "artha siddhaM" ??   

bhaskar : 

With this we can conclude that paramArtha jnana is NOT AT ALL a sole 
property of A FORMAL SANYAASI.... And contextually there are several 
meaning to the word 'saNyAsa' in shankara's bhAshyAmruta. 

Sri S prabhuji :

Bhaskar-ji it is one thing to conclude that even though one respects 
Shankara, one can have one's own intellectual honesty and disagree with, 
or not consider very important, the Acharya's stated positions on each and 
everything as Sadananda-ji alluded to - it is quite another thing to try 
to find ways to read into his bhashyas a message that seems to suit one's 
line of thinking - a tremendous degree of objectivity is called for and 
one needs to examine this dispassionately, and with the help of one's 
Guru, comprehensively. 

bhaskar : 

Yes prabhuji, it requires an hell amount of objectivity when discussing 
these type of issues...selective quoting & fabricated assumptions would 
not going to help us in this objective analysation...It needs abundant 
guru kAruNya to get a glimpse of that truth....May the god & your guru 
bless you in your spiritual quest.

Humble pranams
Hari OM
Shri Gurubhyoh namah
Shyam 

Humble praNAms onceagain 
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!