[Advaita-l] shudra

[Anbu sivam2]

Michaelji,
This thread was started by you so I thought a clarity on the objective
understanding was the purpose and I participated.  Now you seem to get into
the dual role of a kavi and a non-kavi!

Understanding varna purely from the point of karma and understanding varna
as 'gunakarma' are two different things.  The former has led us into this
secular denunciation of Hindu varnasrama dharma.  We the learned ones can
atleast escape that ignorance.

Karma according to Bhagavan is one's right. (KarmaNye vaa adhikaarasthe..")
 What is a right is one's option not necessarily a destiny.  Precisely
because of this option  Bhagavan himself exhorts abandonment of karma.

Again Karma has been clearly divided into the four different categories and
a person is born equipped to carry on with karma that is best suited to his
equipment.  This is the praarabhda karma.

A janma should be known not necessarily as that which enables you to carry
out a karma but the experience that constitutes the bhoga.  Bhoga includes
both happiness and misery.  Actually there is more misery than happiness in
the janma.

Usurping others' karma is adharma.  Forcing on you a karma that you do not
like is an adhrma by the one who forces it on you.  A system that would
force on you a pursuit not suited to your guna is adharmic system.  Secular
society falls in that adharmic category.  A system that enables you to
fulfuil the purushartha is a dhaarmic system.

All these are part of varna understanding.



On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Michael Shepherd <
michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> Anbuji,
>
> I'm a somewhat 'liberated' poet. I write something down; then try to
> understand what I've written..
>
> What I was implying was : we are all the self, complete. Nothing is not
> known to us. We may be born, or designated, sudra, vaisya, kshatriya,
> brahmin. Yet every day most of us are required to fulfil the role
> of --obedient service under instruction; exchanging our goods and services;
> commanding and defending others; and even, some of us, finding time to
> study
> the scriptures (or at least, studying ourselves, aided by that wonderful
> atman...).
>
> So the varna have their realities and actualities, and we experience them.
> I
> would even dare to suggest (remembering my own suffering while trying to
> find the 'right place in society' ... I want to know the truth, think from
> the truth, act from the truth, etc.) -- that a happy man knows all varna;
> while at that moment, acting out one role or another... and knowing that
> they are roles...
>
> I don't know whether that helps. Probably not !
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Anbu
> sivam2
> Sent: 24 August 2009 14:57
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] shudra
>
>
>
> Michaelji,
> I wish to understand you more clearly when you say: " we pass through all
> varna from
> sudra to brahmana in a single working day !"
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 4:54 AM, Michael Shepherd <
> michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Gentlemen
> >
> > Just to record the fact  that I've now purchased Professor Ram Sharan
> > Sharma's superb and painstaking 'Sudras in Ancient India' subtitled 'A
> > social history of the lower order down to circa AD 600' (revised since
> the
> > original publication in 1958).
> >
> > I think this should answer all my questions, and perhaps those of others
> :
> > for instance, giving the several references in the RgVeda to the tribes
> of
> > Daasa and Dasyu..
> >
> > Professor Sharma's conclusion after sifting the evidence is that 'the
> > RgVedic society had no recognisable sudra order.' The book follows the
> > subsequent fortunes and misfortunes of the 'lower order'.
> >
> > The conclusion would seem to be that today, we pass through all varna
> from
> > sudra to brahmana in a single working day ! So perhaps we are fortunate
> to
> > live in the kaliyuga after all, as the sages tell us: from the depths, we
> > can only rise !
> >
> > Thank you all for your patience.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Jaldhar
> > H. Vyas
> > Sent: 20 August 2009 05:54
> > To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] shudra
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 17 Aug 2009, Michael Shepherd wrote:
> >
> > > I would be happy to clear up this matter of 'shudra' with the help of
> > > members here : it is clearly an aspect of advaita, yet there seems to
> be
> > a
> > > confusion about the real meaning of the term -- and thus, whether it
> has
> > any
> > > relevance in today's society..
> > >
> > > The confusions seem to be two in particular : first, that varna and
> jati
> > and
> > > 'caste' are randomly used in relation to shudra; and second, that by
> > > translating it as 'labourer' rather than 'servant' there is a sense of
> > > inferiority implied.
> > >
> >
> > A big problem is the varna system as depicted in books bears little
> > relation to the system that actually exists in Indian society.  The
> Shudra
> > varna as a sociological category is meaningless.  Shudra castes include
> > economically dominant landholders, professionals and artisans as well as
> > the
> > oppressed and downtrodden.  And this is not new, in fact it has been the
> > state of affairs for all of Indias recorded history.  Even in the
> shastras
> > it is not cut and dry.  For instance of the two examples Shankaracharya
> > gives of Shudras who were jnanis, one Dharmavyadha was a hunter and
> > butcher of meat but the other Vidura was the minister of the Kurus,
> hardly
> > a servile position.
> >
> > > Yet if the definition of 'servant' and 'service' is applied, it is
> > > immediately obvious that one can serve kings, ministers, brahmins,
> > > kshatriyas, and anyone else -- paid or unpaid -- with the highest
> > > faithfulness, skills, devotion, and knowledge.
> > >
> > > How then can any spiritual gifts be denied to shudras ? How can shudra
> be
> > > seen as
> > > next to dalit in some map of society ?
> > >
> >
> > If Shudra means anything at all it is they are not dvija or twice-born.
> > That means they are not entitled to initiation into the study of the
> > Vedas.  The problem is that the Upanishads are the basis of Vedanta and
> > being part of the Vedas, it would prima facie seem to mean that Shudras
> > (and women, and foreigners etc.) are not eligible to study Vedanta and
> > achieve moksha.  This view was indeed held by some thinkers and even in
> > the Smarta tradition, there are some orders that do not accept non-dvija
> > or non-Brahmanas.
> >
> > But this is not the majority view and Shankaracharya
> > explains why.  The function of the karmakanda of the Vedas is to
> > produce the desired goal (icchita phala) by means of accumulating
> > merit and avoiding sin.  This goal once acquired is enjoyed until
> > it becomes exhausted whereupon the cycle has to begin again.  Adhikara or
> > eligibility for karma legitimately depends on external factors (along
> with
> > caste they could include, gender, age, wealth, region, level of
> education,
> > etc.) because the body itself is the product of this process of karma.
> > However jnana is different.  Brahman is not a thing to be acquired
> neither
> > can it be lost as it is the indwelling essence of all that is.  One who
> > posesses qualities such as chetana (awareness), viveka (the ability to
> > discriminate between real and non-real,) vairagya (renunciation of
> > material things) etc. has the adhikara to know Brahman.  And as it is
> > plainly evident that the non-dvija are capable of posessing such
> > qualities.
> >
> > So much for theory but the practical problem still remains.  Without
> > access to the Vedas _how_ will non-dvija get the knowledge that leads to
> > liberation?  Bhagavan Krishna Dvaipayana who is called Vedavyasa because
> > of organizing the Vedas into four, also took the essence of the Vedas and
> > composed the Mahabharata (which contains the Bhagavadgita,
> Sanatasujatiyam
> > etc.) and the 18 puranas culminating in the Bhagavata.  By studying these
> > (which are therefore collectively known as the fifth veda,) the non-dvija
> > can also receive the same spiritual gifts available to the Brahmanas,
> > Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas.
> >
> > --
> > Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at braincells.com>
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