[Advaita-l] Advaita-l Digest, Vol 50, Issue 18
Siddavatam Ramesh
rummycruise at yahoo.com
Sun Sep 21 05:06:35 CDT 2008
Narayan
With the little knowledge I got , am trying to answer to your queries :
The purpose of Karma yoga is only purification of mind.
(Acts performed without attachment to results and dedicated to the lord, purify the mind. )
Just ask yourself how karma bigins? Karmas are not the means to happiness, karmas are only means to misery. One will go on doing karmas.
One becomes happy when things he liked are obtained and when things unliked are obtained he becomes unhappy. Achievenent of things liked are purely dependent on the result of ones own karmas he engages into innumerable actions ( karmas0 such as thoughts, speech and activities. As the body is short lived he has to lose body before all his newly started karmas are completed and before the results are experienced. Hence he wishes to have a body again to continue his uncompleted karmas.
At this point God comes to his help. He makes him take such a body ( human bird, beast etc,) through which he can continue his previous karmas and experience the good and bad results according to his past karmas..
Now comes Prarabdha..That portion alone of the results of his past karmas which is allotted to him by God to be experienced in this birth. = Prarabdha.
Why should you pray..???
Leaving it to the will of the lord..is nothing but leaving it to ones own Prarabdha. Individual should leave to God the sole right to fulfil his wishes or will in the order of priority HE wishes. If one does so, Since God is All Knowing, He knows what is best to give and when. He will dispose prarabdha in such a way that when whatever Prarabdha is given to be experienced it will help the individual to regain his ORIGINAL STATE THE SELF.
What happenes when one doesnot do so? the prarabdha has to be experienced any way and does give fruit. But as he doesnot like Prarabdha, one loses his balance of mind and sicrimination while forced to undergo sufferings and joys. He fights against it and there by creates AGAMYA ( Karmas performed newly).
yOUR QUESTION : Is there a law of Power of Belief, (in
prayer/Almighty)created by Lord? Can it override law of gravitation if the Lord
so wills? This question arises out of the statement "it (prayer as a
course of action) may or may not give the desired result"
aNSWER : aS gOD IS THE oRDAINER OF pRARABDHA, he HAS THE PERFECT FREEDOM EITHER TO CHANGE OR ARREST THE EXPERIENCEING OF pRARABDHA IF ONE COMPLETELY SURRENDERS to HIM.
If one surrendres to God God can either allow prarabdha, change it or stop ir. If not surrendered everything will become FATE. .If surrendered GOD can also order the AGAMYA to give fruit immediately by including in the PRARABDHA.
Regards
--- On Sat, 20/9/08, advaita-l-request at lists.advaita-vedanta.org <advaita-l-request at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
From: advaita-l-request at lists.advaita-vedanta.org <advaita-l-request at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Subject: Advaita-l Digest, Vol 50, Issue 18
To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Date: Saturday, 20 September, 2008, 10:30 PM
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Today's Topics:
1. karma revisited -2 (narayan iyer)
2. Re: karma - revisited - I (narayan iyer)
3. Re: Fw: Sankara Mutt (narayan iyer)
4. Re: karma revisited -2 (kuntimaddi sadananda)
5. Re: Fw: Sankara Mutt (Shyam)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 00:37:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: narayan iyer <z1e1b1r1a at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Advaita-l] karma revisited -2
To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Message-ID: <632923.47873.qm at web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Resoected Sri Sadananaji,
Thanks for your prompt response to earlier message.
I was learning through your excellent article "On Karma yoga: 6 -
Choiceless Choice Advaita-l archives 2nd Jan. 06)- the analogy of throwing a big
stone the up and waiting for the results - you wrote:
1."However, once I perform an action ? say throw the stone up, I cannot
determine its result. I cannot control its trajectory. I can pray the
Lord to freeze the stone hanging in the air so that it would not fall on
my baldhead. That prayer is also a course of action that I can choose
to make. It may or may not give the desired result. The trajectory of
the stone, however, is determined by the gravitational force, Newton?s
laws of action and frictional forces, etc. I cannot mend or amend those
laws to suit the results that I want, since I am not the author of
those laws. They are part of the creation and Lord is the author of
these laws that dictate the result of my action."
In this situation, why do I pray?? Is there a one billionth of one per cent
chance that stone will freeze? Is there a law of Power of Belief, (in
prayer/Almighty)created by Lord? Can it override law of gravitation if the Lord
so wills? This question arises out of the statement "it (prayer as a
course of action) may or may not give the desired result"
2. "I am impartial to everybody, I have no liking for any one nor hatred
for any one. Whether one prays or not, whether one is a devotee or even
non-believer, Krishna is impartial. Just as gravitational forces act
impartially whether I believe in it or not whether I pray it four times a day or
not"....(cut/paste) "Hence Krishna says: ?ye bhajantitu maa
bhaktyaa mayi te teshu chaapyaham ? whoever worships me with devotion
they are with me and I am also with them ? Those who understand the laws
of nature and operate correctly they are in union with Me and I also
bless them appropriately?.
When the results are uniform for bhaktas and non-believers, what is meant by
blessings to the Bhaktas here? And of what use are the blessings?
Kindly clarify when you can.
with thanks and regards,
narayan
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 00:47:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: narayan iyer <z1e1b1r1a at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] karma - revisited - I
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID: <350472.65480.qm at web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Dear Shrinivas,
Thank you for your reply. I could understand Sri Bhattacharjya's reply
better read in conjunction with your reply. Thankk you for crafting the reply
in the terminology I could better understand.
To Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
Thank you Sri Sunilji. You have pointed out the karma arising out of inaction
which I had omitted to consider.
narayan
--- On Fri, 9/19/08, Shrinivas Gadkari <sgadkari2001 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: Shrinivas Gadkari <sgadkari2001 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Advaita-l] karma - revisited - I
> To: "Advaita-l List" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Friday, September 19, 2008, 9:22 AM
> Namaste,
>
> I assume Shri Bhattacharya?s reply answers your question.
>
> To put it in the X, Y, A terminology:
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 04:03:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: narayan iyer <z1e1b1r1a at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Sankara Mutt
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID: <544176.52334.qm at web51603.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Respected Sri Vidyasankarji,
I am a great admirer of your write-ups. On seeing your reply, I also reflected
on the matter for a whole day. Initially, I thought of dropping the subject
altogether. But on better judgement I decided that I should respond, since the
subject was initiated by me. So here goes my reply:
The first query of my post was "Is there a charter of functions of Sankara
Mutts?" This was inexplicably not touched by any of the respondents. Not
even an i dont know; i dont care; you are not entitled to know response.
Second, why I presumed that may be Sankara maTha can help me with a translation
was because a book entitled "YaajuSha suurya namaskaara kalpaH" was
compiled by Sri Sundararama Diskhitar with an English translation by N. S.
Anatakrishna Sastri,Astanavidwan (at that time) of Sringeri Mutt, and published
by Sri Sringeri Jagadguru Sanatana Dharma Vidya Samiti, 1967. This book has
Srimukham of Sri Mahasannidhanam, the previous Sankaracharya of Sringeri. (This
message is in our archives of June 05 - courtesy Sri Ramakrishnan
Balasubramnian). This book contains the entire Aruna prasna of TA.
Now response to other points,
>
> There are different aspects of discussion that have already
> come up -
> knowledge of Sanskrit, translations of Vedas, role of the
> Sankara maThas
> in the modern world, maTha-s not being able to make even
> their followers
> follow brAhmaNa dharma, etc. Here are my 2 cents on this.
>
> 1. It is not the job of the Sankara maThas to make
> available online versions of Veda translations.
My query simply wondered whether Sankara maThas can do something to alleviate
the non-availability of translation of vedas for persons so placed as I am.
Please note that "online versions", "job of Sankara maThas
etc." are neither stated nor implied in my letter and you have unreasonably
inferred something which is not there. However, as you have elsewhere
stated/concurred that Sankara maThas do not approve of translation of vedas:
Please clarify whether it is a stated policy of the Matha, a fact which is not
in public domain (but a fact none-the-less)or knowledge arising out of certain
matters or inference.
> Nor is it the job of other old traditional institutions belonging to other
vedAnta traditions. It is also not the job of newer and perhaps richer
institutions like Maharishi TM and Sai Baba to do so.
That makes me wonder as to the purpose of providing links of somether's
translation on their websites.
>
> 2. If available translations appear unsatisfactory, it is
> not that
> difficult to make some effort and figure out why it is so.
That is the reason of quest for better translations, if possible
> One should
> already know a little bit about the original, in order to
> say that a
> translation is not good. The onus then lies on the reader
> to explore it
> further and study the original more carefully.
That is what I am doing presently and that is why I was searching.
> Unless one is living in interior Africa or south America, finding some
guidance from a more learned person is also not all that difficult. In the USA
or Europe, you cannot always expect the local temple priest to guide you beyond
a point, but you can certainly find help from a host of other
sources.
Here there is exaggeration or presumption of one's own experience takes
over. I am staying in Surat, Gujarat, India. I belong to taittiriya shaka of
KYV and I couldnt locate a traditional teacher possessing knowlege of sanskrit
and TS of KYV. I was not alone in search and there were others in search as
well. I am not a net-geek seeking internet access to everything. I would love
to learn in the personal company of my guru. Absence of that company is what
making me to turn to other resources.
> At the very least, if specific questions are asked on this
> forum, there is no dearth of very helpful scholars here, young and old,
who will respond.
That they have been doing (your goodselves included) is definitely appreciated
and thats what makes subscribers stick to advaita-L.
>
> 3. How the maTha-s function can be easily seen by anyone
> who follows the news in India.
I live in Surat,Gujarat, India. I didnt come across any news regarding Dwarka
maTha in local media in the last one year and I dont think I was careless to
miss one. If I had missed any and you had captured the event, please correct
me.
I am not considering the two instances when Acharya's name cropped up. I
have seen your compilations on Sankaracharyas and presume that you know the two
instances. These two occasions had nothing to do with activity of the maTha.
>Throughout the year, there is a wide variety of scholarly and religious
activity that goes on.
> For most of the well-known maTha-s, their followers and well-wishers come
from all castes and communities.
Where did someone infer otherwise?
> It is silly to think that only brAhmaNa-s are followers of the
> traditional maTha-s.
It is sillier to presume that brAhmaNa-s think like that.
> 4. How many people in a maTha converse amongst themselves
> in Sanskrit? Well, you can hardly expect the man in charge of stocking
> groceries in the maTha kitchen or the manager of its guest houses to
> speak Sanskrit. If you make the effort and talk in Sanskrit to the
>priests and paNDitas associated with the maTha, they will talk to you in
> Sanskrit. Their basic assumption, which is very valid, is that the general
visitor to the maTha cannot speak Sanskrit. So, they will speak to you in other
languages, and in your presence, will not speak to each
> other in Sanskrit. It would be incredibly rude to an infrequent
> visitor, if the maTha people conversed amongst themselves in a language
> that is not understood. There is an entire culture of appropriate
> behavior that needs to be understood and appreciated, rather than
> imposing your value judgements upon them.
Even during the historic meeting of the four Sankaracharyas, Sanskrit was not
reported to be the medium of conversation amongst the acharyas, so why grapple
with admin. staff, kitchen staff, room manager etc.
> 5. The maTha-s do not exist in order for a sannyasi to
> secure high
> approval ratings from the general mass of people. They also
> do not exist
> to construct hospitals or do social work. However, when
> people start
> pouring in money as donations, what is one to do with the
> surplus? Why
> not take it for what it is - a modern form of
> institutionalized charity?
> It is not the sannyasi who is doing social work; it is the
> institution
> that supports the sannyasi, which is also doing some social
> work. There
> is absolutely nothing wrong in that.
This precisely takes us back to my unanswered question. Sankara Mutt is a
institution. What is the charter of functions of this esteemed institution. The
above points do not clarify that.
>
> 6. Srikrishna, I would like to know whom you have in mind
> in the
> following statement.
>
> >Just because their depth of Sanskrit scholarship takes
> them
> >only to the level of Upanishad commentaries, and they
> do
> >not have the guts to study and practice the other
> rituals
> >mentioned in the earlier portions of the texts, having
> taken
> >to other studies and jobs, utterly disregard others
> rights to
> >know Veda in the medium of their understanding.
>
> Are you talking of the renunciates who are learning
> upanishads from
> their gurus and who are not members of this list, or are
> you talking of
> people on this list? In the former case, they have already
> renounced
> rituals. In the latter case, what do you know about the
> guts, study or
> practice of rituals of other list members? In either case,
> it takes a
> fair level of Sanskrit knowledge to read and understand
> Upanishad
> commentaries. Also, nobody is disregarding or denying
> anyone any rights.
Pl. permit me to take on the following issues as they pertain to me as well:
> As I read Siva Senani's post, all I saw was an explanation for why
> providing an online translation of the Veda is not a project that a
> traditional maTha would or should do at this time.
Once again I beseech you to read the passage without word "online"
because it is maya and it isnt there in the original.
I have to rebutt here that Sri Senan's post wasnt such a bland simple
explanation as you put here in your message. Such a tone of language in a
letter is sure to bring in responses.
> 7. Specifically in the case of Sankara maTha-s, and more
> generally for
> any Hindu institution, it has NEVER been in our tradition
> to "make"
> followers do anything by force. The AcArya-s preach to the
> general
> public and they influence those who come into closer
> contact with them.
> Scare tactics and physical or psychological force have been
> used and are
> being used by preachers of other religions. These
> approaches are ALIEN
> to the AcArya-s of the truly traditional maTha-s. A century
> or more ago,
> there was a fear of being outcasted and socially boycotted,
> but today,
> that is hardly an issue, especially in urban India.
>
> 8. Rather than make a hundred other points on this list, I
> would suggest
> (with thanks to Kennedy) - ask not what a traditional maTha
> is doing for
> you, ask what you can do to help sustain a traditional
> maTha. If we feel
> strongly about our tradition, there is no better way than
> to personally
> get in touch with some of our traditional institutions,
> find out what
> they are doing and help their growth. I can think of many
> more worthy
> institutions that one can support, not just the famous
> Sankara maTha-s.
The point is well taken.
narayan
>
> Regards,
> > Vidyasankar
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 05:42:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] karma revisited -2
To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Message-ID: <136446.32550.qm at web56001.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Shree Narayan Iyer
PraNAms
You have asked very pertinent questions. I will try to answer to the best I
can.
About the prayer and its efficacy - here is a recent interesting story I read
in Yahoo or so.
Few devotees got together and built a beautiful temple as a place of prayer and
worship.
One fellow, who does not pray, built a liquor shop right in front of the
temple, angering all the devotees of the temple. The devotees prayed to the
Lord to get rid of the liquor shop and this fellow just smiled at their prayers.
It so happened that some lightning stoke the liquor shop and it get burned
down. This liquor owner sued the temple devotees that it is because of their
prayer his shop got destroyed. The devotees of the temple were happy that the
shop got destroyed, but said they have nothing to do with the destruction of the
shop. It is not their prayers that did the destruction.
Judge finds the case is very peculiar. Here is the man who does not belief in
God, but beliefs that prayer by the devotees to the god can do the job. And here
are the devotes who believe in God but do not believe that that prayer cannot do
the job.
Leaving aside the story let us ask what the prayer does.
There are some tangle effects and some intangible effects and results.
1. Prayer helps the devotees? minds that are agitated, because of the situation
or the anticipated results, to calm down. That will open up their minds to see
the possibilities that would otherwise be difficult to see for agitated minds. A
calm and quiet mind alone is capable of inquiry. Hence the solutions can get
revealed to the contemplative mind. Hence surrenderance is the most efficient
way of purification of the mind.
2. Prayer itself is a subtle action. Since the results of the action is
determined by the totality or Iswara, and the results depends on so many factors
that are beyond our control (in Chaos theory they teach a butterfly effect -
saying the fluttering of butterfly in remote village in china can affect the
weather in NY - since system is non-linear). Hence prayer forms a subtle action
that can affect the system in subtle way. Most important is prayer will help to
consolidate the like minds to get united; and united mind in action is difficult
to recon with. That is the power of prayer. It is not a gross but subtle action
that can have its results. We do not know all the factors that enter into the
equation in framing the results of an action. Lord does not do any favor to any
body but proper prayer I myself is changing the factors that determine the
equation ? hence the statement ? ye bhajantitu maam bhktyaa mayi te teshu
caapyaham ? those who
worship me they are in me or in tune with me and I am in tune with them.
3. In discussing the karma and upaasana - in the first portion of Mundaka says
that ritualistic action that includes upaasana also discussed in Vedas are
satyam in the sense they do give the results promised provided you do the action
as prescribed.
This much I know. I am not a ritualist. But I find myself praying first thing
in the morning and last thing in the night and in between any time that I have
nothing else to do just to remind myself the beauty and majesty of His glory in
all the manifestations that I see in front. I cannot but bow down in my mind
with humility seeing the majestic display of his glory. That is my prayer - I
weak moments I do pray in my mind reminding myself the prayer of serenity. So
prayer does help. Surrenderance with understanding is emphasized in all
scriptures.
Hope this answers your questions.
Hari Om!
Sadananda
--- On Sat, 9/20/08, narayan iyer <z1e1b1r1a at yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: narayan iyer <z1e1b1r1a at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Advaita-l] karma revisited -2
> To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 3:37 AM
> Resoected Sri Sadananaji,
>
> Thanks for your prompt response to earlier message.
>
> I was learning through your excellent article "On
> Karma yoga: 6 - Choiceless Choice Advaita-l archives 2nd
> Jan. 06)- the analogy of throwing a big stone the up and
> waiting for the results - you wrote:
>
> 1."However, once I perform an action ? say throw the
> stone up, I cannot
> determine its result. I cannot control its trajectory. I
> can pray the
> Lord to freeze the stone hanging in the air so that it
> would not fall on
> my baldhead. That prayer is also a course of action that I
> can choose
> to make. It may or may not give the desired result. The
> trajectory of
> the stone, however, is determined by the gravitational
> force, Newton?s
> laws of action and frictional forces, etc. I cannot mend
> or amend those
> laws to suit the results that I want, since I am not the
> author of
> those laws. They are part of the creation and Lord is the
> author of
> these laws that dictate the result of my action."
>
> In this situation, why do I pray?? Is there a one
> billionth of one per cent chance that stone will freeze? Is
> there a law of Power of Belief, (in prayer/Almighty)created
> by Lord? Can it override law of gravitation if the Lord so
> wills? This question arises out of the statement "it
> (prayer as a course of action) may or may not give the
> desired result"
>
> 2. "I am impartial to everybody, I have no liking for
> any one nor hatred for any one. Whether one prays or not,
> whether one is a devotee or even non-believer, Krishna is
> impartial. Just as gravitational forces act impartially
> whether I believe in it or not whether I pray it four times
> a day or not"....(cut/paste) "Hence Krishna says:
> ?ye bhajantitu maa
> bhaktyaa mayi te teshu chaapyaham ? whoever worships me
> with devotion
> they are with me and I am also with them ? Those who
> understand the laws
> of nature and operate correctly they are in union with Me
> and I also
> bless them appropriately?.
>
> When the results are uniform for bhaktas and non-believers,
> what is meant by blessings to the Bhaktas here? And of what
> use are the blessings?
>
> Kindly clarify when you can.
>
> with thanks and regards,
>
> narayan
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Archives:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 06:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Shyam <shyam_md at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Sankara Mutt
To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Message-ID: <707887.78488.qm at web53407.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
There are a number of veda patashAlas that have either been set-up or supported
at the behest of the Kanchi MahAperiyavAr -
http://www.kanchiforum.org/interesting/institutions.htm
One such institution that I am familiar with is in Navi Mumbai
http://www.scsvvp.net/infrastucture/photo_gallary.html
Best wishes,
Hari OM
Shyam
--- On Sat, 9/20/08, narayan iyer <z1e1b1r1a at yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: narayan iyer <z1e1b1r1a at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fw: Sankara Mutt
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <>
> Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 7:03 AM
> Respected Sri Vidyasankarji,
>
>
> The first query of my post was "Is there a charter of
> functions of Sankara Mutts?" This was inexplicably not
> touched by any of the respondents. Not even an i dont know;
> i dont care; you are not entitled to know response.
>
> Here there is exaggeration or presumption of one's own
> experience takes over. I am staying in Surat, Gujarat,
> India. I belong to taittiriya shaka of KYV and I couldnt
> locate a traditional teacher possessing knowlege of sanskrit
> and TS of KYV. I was not alone in search and there were
> others in search as well. I am not a net-geek seeking
> internet access to everything. I would love to learn in the
> personal company of my guru. Absence of that company is
> what making me to turn to other resources.
>
------------------------------
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