[Advaita-l] RE: Advaita vEdAnta - Unit (11)

[Anbu sivam2]

The fine distinction that is being made between Karma and Avidya is a
hairsplitting argument indeed!

On 2/6/07, Krunal Makwana <krunalmakwana at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Jai Sri Krsna
>
> Dear Vishwanathanji,
>
> > "There was no such initial state - karma is beginningless. > > This
> explanation looks too elusive nd certainly doesn't answer the point
> raised!!!> When the whole karma theory is about cause and effect, how it can
> be beginingless??? Can someone be clearer on this please.
> I think the discussion that you are having is really a 'who came first,
> chicken or the egg?' situation.
>
> To 'think' of a creation you have to admit mAyA, which in turn is caused
> by avidyA. According to pujyapAda, avidyA is annirvachaniya, indescribable
> and anAdi, beginningless. (Reference: AtmA bodha verse 13). So to even say
> 'there was a time when there was no karma etc' is invalid as we would never
> know. The mere fact that karma takes place shows that avidya is present!!!
>
> Again going back to the point of karma, karma is an attribute or law which
> governs all creation (within the realm of maya). Yes, karma propounds the
> theory of cause and effect as you rightly said BUT (i have to disagree with
> a fellow list member on karma is 'beginningless'). avidyA is beginningless
> which then in turns leads to the 'beginning' of karma. Due to the beginning
> of karma, leads to flaws and falsely establishes the 'dvaita' of  AtmA,
> brahman and the reality of prakr^iti. This is where at the starting of
> creation (as you said) is without pain, pleasure etc is (to my knowledge)
> wrong because the flaw of false identification is the REAL flaw. which then
> turns jiva-s to mundane existence.
>
> > The universe with all jIva-s still exists in subtle form even after
> dissolution, and these get 'recycled' into the next cycle of creation.
>
> This only exists while the jiva has not reached realisation, and is
> dependent on Ishvara.
> Kind regards,Krunal
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 04:40:12 +0000> From: vishy1962 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] RE: Advaita vEdAnta - Unit (11)> To:
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> > "There was no such initial state -
> karma is beginningless. The universe with all jIva-s still exists in subtle
> form even after dissolution, and these get 'recycled' into the next cycle of
> creation."> > This explanation looks too elusive nd certainly doesnt answer
> the point raised!!!> When the whole karma thoery is about cause and effet,
> how it can be beginingless??? Can someone be clearer on this please.> >
> Pranams> Vishwanathan> > > Sankaran Aniruddhan <
> sankaran_aniruddhan at yahoo.com> wrote:> namaste,> > Kris Manian wrote:> Let
> us take the very first time the Jagat was created, when there was no karma>
> at all for Jivas. At that time how many humans and creatures would have been
> born?> Probably one of whatever species Brhman wanted, right? (Most probably
> no> animals, birds, insects etc as they are considered lower forms to human
> and only are> born due to human's bad karma) Because there was no cause for>
> a vast number of species or vast number of humans as there was no karma to
> start with. > There would have been no sorrow, no pain and only all bliss,
> probably like the Garden of Eden? > So what do you think started off this
> chain of Karma and the world as we see it now? > There was no such initial
> state - karma is beginningless. The universe with all jIva-s still exists in
> subtle form even after dissolution, and these get 'recycled' into the next
> cycle of creation.> > Aniruddhan> > Sruti smRti purANAnAm Alayam
> karuNAlayam> namAmi bhagavatpAda Sam.karam lokaSam.karam> > >
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