[Advaita-l] Re: Advaita-l Digest, Vol 41, Issue 8

[Santhosh Nair]

Hi,
Since we are talking about whether Venketashwar is Vishnu himself, I have another question. What do you all think about Swami Ayyappa (Sabarimala, Kerala)? I guess this would be a relevant question in this list. The board on the temple reads "Tatvamasi". Ayyappa is not worshipped in any other states other than Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, and Andhra Pradesh. Why is this so? Please do share your opinions...


Thank you,
Santhosh


On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 advaita-l-request at lists.advaita-vedanta.org wrote :
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>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Recommended Vedanta-bhashya? (Ramesh Krishnamurthy)
>    2. Re: paJNchAyatana pUja (Abhishek RK)
>    3. Re: paJNchAyatana pUja (Annapureddy Siddhartha Reddy)
>    4. Re: Recommended Vedanta-bhashya in Tamil or Hindi
>       (Siva Senani Nori)
>    5. Re: Recommended Vedanta-bhashya? (Siva Senani Nori)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 22:39:45 +0530
> From: "Ramesh Krishnamurthy" <rkmurthy at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Recommended Vedanta-bhashya?
>To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
> 	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>Message-ID:
> 	<3df698e50609071009j54654250l9d7bb292bf43aa39 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> > Namaste Sri Senani,
> >
> > Would you (and/or the list members) recommend any good translations of
> > the AchArya's works in hindi or tamil ? (especially
> > the prakaraNa granthas as I am a beginner).
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Regards,
> > Shyam
>
>
>Some good Indian language translations are published by the Gita
>Press, Gorakhpur. You can commonly find their stalls at railway
>stations across the country. Their translations retain almost the
>entire Sanskrit vocabulary with only the grammar changed to the
>relevant language.
>
>The Ramakrishna Math's Chennai Ashrama publishes translations in
>Tamil. You can order them online at www.sriramakrishnamath.org. The RK
>Math also has Hindi translations published by their Nagpur Ashrama.
>
>Ramesh
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 23:49:57 +0530
> From: "Abhishek RK" <rkabhi at gmail.com>
>Subject: [Advaita-l] Re: paJNchAyatana pUja
>To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
> 	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>Message-ID:
> 	<d00b46cc0609071119n3d0b26f3lc7a7e390b7d3e99e at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Namaste Bhaskarji,
>
>The goal of upAsana is to become one with the upAsya. Thus we must
>exercise caution before setting out on upAsana *on our own*. In any
>case, I find it strange that you have not mentioned Adisha~Nkara
>bhagavatpAda or one's guru in your list. In the case of the
>historically documented personalities you have mentioned, we may be
>sure that some of them are not advaitins.
>
>Regarding indra, varuNa and other vedic devas, historically they have
>been worshipped via yaj~nas (which are taking place presently also)
>and not by ArAdhana. But it is notable that yaj~na is also a form of
>worship.
>
>Regards,
>Abhishek
>
>On 9/7/06, bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:
> > praNAms Sri Abhishek prabhuji
> > Hare Krishna
> >
> >...it may be shiva, vishNu, dEvi,
> > RaghavEndra, SaibAba, bhagavan ramaNa, Hanumaan, gaNesha or any other
> > human/celestial being  with specific name & form....Choice of IshtadEvata
> > is in my opinion is quite subjective & we cannot restrict it to some
> > specific & stipulated names & forms..if we put boundaries to these names &
> > forms, sometime it may lead us to bigotry......for that matter, nowadays,
> > nowhere I have seen one is worshipping yama, Indra, varuNa as his
> > IshtadEvata .....though they are the *yEkam sat* but with different names
> > :-))  In most of the cases IshtadEvata-s have been chosen either from
> > purANa-s or one's subjective attachment to some noble personality..I dont
> > think there would be any problem in keeping some specific name &  form as
> > their IshtadEvata when they know the  ultimate truth behind these names &
> > forms.
> >
> > Just few of my throughts
> >
> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> > bhaskar
>
>--
>tasmAttvamuttiShTha yasho labhasva
>jitvA shatrUn bhu~NkShva rAjyaM samR^iddham|
>mayyaivaite nihatAH pUrvameva
>nimittamAtraM bhava savyasAchin||11.33||
>-bhagavAn shrIkR^iShNa, bhagavadgIta
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 15:38:21 -0700
> From: "Annapureddy Siddhartha Reddy" <annapureddy at gmail.com>
>Subject: [Advaita-l] Re: paJNchAyatana pUja
>To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
>Message-ID:
> 	<f00f84120609071538p1777525du89bf0a0782d33e14 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>praNAm.h Vishwanathanji, Bhaskarji, Ramaji, Shiva Senani gAru,
>        Thanks for responding with your views. I am responding to all of your
>points in this mail. Please see my comments below:
>
>
> > So, would I be right in saying that advaita vEdAnta as a tradition does
> > not
> > uphold one view over the other; that all of these views are fine in as far
> > as they make the sAdhaka realize the nirguNa nature of brahma?
>
>
>Could you tell me if the above approach is sanctioned by the tradition of
>advaita vEdAnta?
>
>
> >   I felt that these puranas are told to just to drive / uphold some moral
> > values and nothng more. The story tellers were different and were just using
> > the same names/ charecters in thier stories without botheirng much about
> > their role in earlier stories. So we need to see the final moral of the
> > story rather than the charecters.
>
>
>Viswanathanji, while the above is a position that could be taken, I am not
>sure if the tradition holds the same view about the itihAsas (if not the
>purANas). Given the importance of the rAmAyaNa and the mahAbhArata, it is
>not easy to dismiss them. Though these itihAsas have been tampered with, the
>basic stories seem to be accepted by all vEdAntic traditions.
>
>Also, it raises questions about the bhagavad.h gIta. How could you accept
>the bhagavad.h gIta as a pramANa without treating the mahAbhArata in which
>it occurs to be so (at least in as far as the mahAbhArata does not go
>against the vEdas)?
>
>and in shruti itself there is a mention that Indra,
> > agni, varuNa & vAyu suffered defeat in the hands of *yaksha rUpi
> > Ishwara*....Here it is evident that Indra, varuNa, agni etc. are all
> > *ahimAni dEvata-s* & they have some super natural powers when compared to
>
>
>Bhaskarji, while that statement could be so interpreted literally, it could
>also have been metaphorical. This concept of abhimAni dEvatas, is it
>acceptable to advaita vEdAnta? And if the indra, varuNa referred to here are
>subordinate to Ishvara, is the "ekaM sat.h" verse talking about the unity of
>subordinate dEvatas?
>
>
> > Re: Venkateshvara. Is he anything other than nArAyaNa himself? What is
> > the need for a separate pramANa?
>
>
>Ramaji, how do we know vEnkatEshvara svAmi is nArAyaNa Himself? It must have
>been mentioned in some purANa. By the same yardstick, even the budhda is
>treated as an incarnation of viShNu. But in the refutation of Buddhism in
>the shArIraka bhAShya, shaN^kara criticizes the budhda in strong words
>(accusing him either of being incoherent or down-right malevolent, modulo
>translation artefacts by svAmi gambhIrAnandaji). Given this context, how
>could we accept the purANa references to vEnkatEshvara svAmi? (Note that
>there are references to shrI rAma and shrI kR^iShNa even in the vEda, so
>this issue does not seem to be a problem in their case).
>
>Re: indra. Who said he is lower than shiva or vishhNu? The yoga
> > vasshiShTha clearly says that episodes involving brahma, etc are not
> > to be interpreted as meaning that they are ignorant. Sankaraananda, a
> > very early writer, says that Ishvara can be worshiped in any form
> > "sivam vaa viShNum vaa api indram anyam vaa". That should be quite
> > clear. Don't buy into amar chitra katha comic versions of indra,
> > vaayu, etc., and think that they are just a bunch of ignorant jokers.
>
>
>Ramaji, leave aside the Amar Chitra Katha stories, even in the rAmAyaNa,
>there is this story of how shiva lost to viShNu when the dEvatas wanted to
>test their strength, and in anger threw down his bow, which then came under
>the charge of the janakas (as recounted by paraShurAma before challenging
>shrI rAma). Or consider the episode of ahalya and indra.
>
>Now there are a couple of positions one could take on this (amongst many
>other pUrvapakShas, I guess):
>-- Treat stories like ahalya's in the rAmAyaNa as mere arthavAda, only
>taking the moral from the story and not treating it as a fact sanctioned by
>the vEdas. Then, we could again treat indra as being without any sins.
>
>-- Accept the story in the rAmAyaNa but treat indra(ship) as a position
>which can be attained by a hundred ashvamEdha sacrifices (or some such
>achievement begotten by karma). Then, we can blame that particular jIva who
>happened to be in the position of indra for the wrongdoing. This raises the
>question of who the indra was who was praised so effusively in the R^ik.h
>vEda etc. We could say that Ishvara Himself took the position of indra in
>some bygone kalpas (just like He took form as a man like shrI rAma etc.)
>Now, this makes it seem that brahma, viShNu and shiva with their respective
>functions are themselves positions that could be attained by jIvas.
>This could also explain why shiva lost to viShNu in the episode in rAmAyaNa.
>
>
>-- If the above positions are unacceptable (for whatever reasons), please
>let me know a consistent position on the itihAsas from an advaita vEdAntic
>perspective.
>
>Thanks.
>
>A.Siddhartha.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 00:36:22 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Recommended Vedanta-bhashya in Tamil or Hindi
>To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> 	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>Message-ID: <20060908073622.30492.qmail at web54203.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>Dear Shyam
>
>   As Sri Ramesh indicated the books of Gita Press are pretty good. They have published Vivekachudamani and Aparokshanubhuti with Hindi translation. The ordering procedure is slightly cumbersome (you first send them a DD, and then they will sea-mail the books to you in USA), but the prices are negligible. And, as Sri Ramesh pointed out, the translation retains many of the original words, but then, the original words - say adhyAsa or titIksha - are best properly understood with the help of a dictionary, or a book like vedanta-paribhasha-kosha.
>
>   My experience with Ramakrishna Math books in Telugu is that they are translated twice - once from Sanskrit to English and then from English to Telugu. Though I have not found anything as different as the round-trip translation of "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" (from English to Russian to English, it finally read: the vodka is good, but the meat is stale), the sentence structure in Telugu was odd at so many places betraying the double translation. I don't know it they do this with Hindi / Tamil as well.
>
>   Apart from these two, those from Motilal Benarsi Das and Chaukambha are generally of good standard. On the authority of my teacher, Sri B. V. L. Narayan Rao, formerly of Wisconsin University, three Hindi translations of Sankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashya by Sri Satyananda Sarasvati; Swami Hanuman Das; and Sri Vishnu Brahmachari (I had not noted the publishers' names) are supposed to be the better ones amongst those available in the market.
>
>   And then, we have the religious institutions - Sringeri Math, Kanchi Math, and Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanam - who have published many prakarana granthas in Tamil. Some TTD books in Telugu are of exceptionally high quality (in scholarship, production values, and treatment), others not so. I did not have occasion to read many Telugu books of Kanchi or Sringeri mathas, except for one on the discourses of Kanchi Paramacharya, which was lovingly done.
>
>   Regards
>   Senani
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 00:45:24 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Recommended Vedanta-bhashya?
>To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> 	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>Message-ID: <20060908074524.80760.qmail at web54209.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>I had earlier written that Sri Radhakrishna had not translated the Brahma Sutras, but while replying to Sri Shyam Subrahmanian's query on translations in Tamil / Hindi, I consulted my notes, and there I see an entry indicating that Sri S. Radhakrishna indeed translated the Brahma Sutras. Sorry.
>
>   Regards
>   Senani
>
>
>Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com> wrote:    Sri Jay
>
>
>   Sri Sarvepalli Radhakrishna's (second President of The Republic of India) achieves a  balance between the two approaches, with copious references to western philosophers, but to my knowledge he has not translated the Brahmasutras.
>
>   Finally, if you want only the text of the Acharya's bhashya, it is available in Devanagari and Roman scripts at http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/bsutraindex.htm
>
>   Best wishes
>   Senani
>
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>End of Advaita-l Digest, Vol 41, Issue 8
>****************************************