[Advaita-l] Self-knowledge

[Mahesh Ursekar]

Pranams:

Thanks for you gracious remarks but I see you elaborate your earlier
position but have no further justification for it. It is a common mistake to
think that love arises in the mind but love in its purest form (a.k.a .
sat-cit-ananda) is universal and not a product of the manas. An therefore,
my allusion to Discovery channel - the locality idea is a very Western
thought! :-)

Let me put forth my case some more:

1. Can the intellect comprehend love? However subtle it may be, the term 'I
understand love' is a invalid.  Infact, all feelings belong to this
category. The intellect can only register feelings and act or them but
cannot understand them. I am hungry makes the intellect search for food but
it cannot express the feeling intelligebly in any way. So, is love as
prosaic as hunger? I don't think so because most other feelings are
localized (I am hungry, I am angry, etc). Sure, one can say 'I am in love'
but interestingly, it is the only feeling that has a higher dimension - the
statement "Love is" is a valid and correct statement. Infact, if you read
Rumi, you will know that it is the ONLY valid statement.
2. Lets take now, the case of two lovers who fall in love 'at first sight'.
How is that possible? How can two individuals who know nothing about each
other be connected in such a bond "like they were looking for each other all
their lives"? It behoves the mind (intellect, I guess) to think that each
individual separately had such overpowering feelings in their manas that
attracted them to each other! There has to be some common factor that linked
the two of them - that IMHO is the universal love that is all around but was
reflected in the two intellects in such a way that they "found each other"!
That is the only plausible explanation.

In short, IMHO, when it comes to spirituality, the intellect is a feeble
instrument (however subtle) since it can barely rise to the high levels
required of true love a.k.a. realization!

Humble pranams, Mahesh


On 2/1/06, Satyan Chidambaran <satyan_c at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Namaste shrI Mahesh,
>
> > Let me illustrate!
>
> > You consider love to be part of the manas? I think you are watching too
> much
> > Discovery and reading too little Rumi! :-)
>
> Sir, with the Lord's grace, I left watching television years ago when
> I  was told to use any discretionary time in more fruitful ways. So I
> do  not think that the former is true :)
>
> Rumi, yes, you are right that I have read very less of him. I had read  a
> bit when I was younger but I have not ventured into other
> traditions  because I do not find the need any more given that vedAnta has
> kept me  busy and most likely will for the rest of the janma.
>
> Just to clarify, when I mentioned various emotions that are in
> the  manas,  In fact, a mother has a beautiful manas because the
> manas  manifests the love for her child. So I do not necessarily see that
> love  gets denigrated because it is manifested in the manas. In fact,
> how  else can the mother express the loving thoughts for her child
> without  the instrument that the Lord has given her? The manas is the
> faculty  for emotions and one should strive to express beautiful and
> pure  emotions in it, shouldn't it be so? A mother naturally expresses
> it,  which is the way the Lord has created her role in the scheme of
> things.  She doesn't do it willingly, she has no choice but to manifest
> that  love.
>
> I do not want to start or at least be involved in a discussion on
> love  and faith and intuition because we are already having hands full
> with  the knowledge part of it already :). I hope that we can save it for
> a  future point.
>
> With respect to reasoning, when we speak of the subtle intellect, we  are
> speaking of an intellect supportive of the sruti in terms of  reasoning and
> not based on independent human reasoning (independent of  sruti) that
> obviously can lead to fallacious and invalid conclusions!  So the one who
> has shraddhA in the sruti will see the validity of the  sruti with
> supportive reasoning even if what is stated by the sruti  cannot be proved
> by human reasoning (independent of the sruti). e.g can  independent human
> reasoning prove rebirth or that mantra japam purifies  the mind? But a
> shraddhAvan takes it that it is there because the sruti  says so and he can
> support the validity of it as well using his subtle  intellect and he also
> sees no way to contradict what the sruti says  either. Hence, he is
> convinced of its validity.
>
> regards,
> --Satyan
>
> Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com> wrote:  Pranams!
>
> Dear sir, if I read you right, I do think you do attach too much
> importance
> to this trifle called the intellect!
>
> Let me illustrate!
>
> You consider love to be part of the manas? I think you are watching too
> much
> Discovery and reading too little Rumi! :-)IMHO, it is like putting the
> proverbial cart before the horse! Love commands, the intellect obeys. Why,
> then do we say, quite truly, - love is a madness! In madness, where is the
> room for the intellect to function? Why does a mother love her ugly son
> while the world wonders - "what does she see in him?" Can the intellect
> even
> begin to comprehend this thing called love - it would only be a naive one
> to
> accept this. Love is transcendantal. Love is.
>
> Take faith now. How does one explain it? The intellect is merely a
> register
> to record its presence but it stems from a higher power. How did Nag
> Mahasaya (a householder disciple of Sri Ramakrishna) make the ganges flow
> out from his garden with nothing but faith? Why do they say - faith can
> move
> mountains and Moses proved it! It lies in the intellect since poor humans
> have just that faculty to know things but it is something much much
> bigger!
>
> Sanjay mentioned intution. I think the same applies. Intution lets the
> intellect take a 'firm conviction' if that is what you like to call it
> Intution is higher than intellectual understanding. "I know this must be
> true", one says without justification or reasoning or in most cases
> against
> reasoning? How?
>
> And last, let us take your erstwhile Jnani. Well, all the fellow (or
> felli)
> can do is say that 'truth' can't be this, can't be that (Neti, Neti) till
> s/he reaches a point where there is a flash of "reality" and all falls
> into
> place. S/he cannot really intellectually understand truth anyway!
>
> Please don't misunderstand me by thinking I attach less importance to
> Jnana
> (or else I would not be on this list) but lets not lose sight of the
> bigger
> picture - truth or love is bigger, grander and more inexplicable than any
> of
> us!
>
> Humble pranams, Mahesh
>
>
>
> On 1/31/06, Satyan Chidambaran  wrote:
> >
> > namaste shrI Amuthan,
> >
> > >> if you call one trying for nirvikalpa samAdhi as a
> > >> special experience chaser, then, one who learns
> > >> vedAnta is a special knowledge chaser!
> >
> > In fact, there is nothing more prudent in advaita than to chase
> > the  special knowledge (about the Self) under a qualified Guru via the
> > valid  pramAna for gaining the knowledge (ie the sruti). Shouldn't
> > every  mumukshu, in advaita vedAnta, strive to chase the special
> > knowledge  that will liberate him or her? This is because that knowledge
> > alone  first purifies and eventually liberates.
> >
> > na hi jnanena sadrsam pavitram iha vidyate (B.G)
> >
> > This knowledge, if gained properly, will show that there is nothing
> to  be
> > gained at all and one is already what one seeks to become. What one  is
> > looking for is already there in *ALL* experiences, one was
> simply  mistaken
> > about ones identity. One who knows this is a bramhavit.
> >
> > In advaita vedAnta, one should rather be a "knowledge seeker" that
> > is  able to see the truth spoken by the sruti in *all* experiences
> > rather  than an "experience seeker" who sees what one fancies as the
> truth
> > in  only certain experiences and misses it in the rest of the
> experiences.
> >
> > >> for everyone other than a uttamAdhikAri,
> > >> nirvikalpaka samAdhi is necessary, though that alone
> > >> is not sufficient.
> >
> > It is neither necessary nor sufficient for gaining moksha in
> > advaita  vedAnta. samAdhi abhyAsa may no doubt help gain antar-mukhatvam
> > (inward  orientedness) and vairAgyam which are qualifications for
> > gaining  knowledge. However, nirvikalpa samAdhi is not necessary for
> > gaining  those qualifications either because they can be cultivated
> > through  other means.
> >
> > On the other hand, what is both necessary and sufficient for moksha
> > is  the j~nAnam gained from the sruti's words and nishtA (abidance) in
> > the  j~nAnam through mananam and nidhidyAsanam. One should strive to be
> > a  j~nAna nishtA whose understanding of the sruti's vision is
> > unshakable  and one who constantly sees through the eyes of the sruti in
>
> > all  experiences. Then, it doesn't matter what the experience is:
> > prArabha  will bring whatever it brings. If it brings nirvikalpa
> samadhi, so
> > be  it. If it doesn't, so be it. One is liberated, no matter what
> > ones'  external situations are.
> >
> > The j~nAna nishtA will experience bramha j~nAna phalam which
> will  include
> > poornatvam, uncaused joy etc, which of course will be  experienced, but
> they
> > are fruits of j~nAnam and not causes of j~nAnam.
> >
> > regards,
> > --Satyan
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >
> > For assistance, contact:
> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>