[Advaita-l] Re: Advaita-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 22

[kalyan chakravarthy]

Namaskaaram,

>Oh God, you completely misunderstand. There is no "anyway" apart from the 
>higher and lower prakRti-s described in Gita 7.4-5, nor is brahman to be 
>described as a form of prakRti. Rather, it is as the jIva that brahman 
>pervades the body and the jIva itself IS the higher prakRti while the body 
>IS the lower prakRti. I would suggest a reading of Sankara's commentary on 
>the two Gita verses, and also chapter 13. You seem to know sufficient 
>Sanskrit to read it in the original.

Leaving aside Sri Adi Shankara's commentary, I would accept what is being 
suggested here if you can throw light on two things -

1.The earlier said analogy of two birds in mundaka and the reference to the 
two entering the body in katha.

2.The reference to the size of the soul in the brahmasUtras.(aNu)

>I don't care about "in general". There is a particular argument we were 
>making.

However you would not say that the five sheaths belong to the Atman. Would 
you? If not, you can call them only as limiting adjuncts.

>Moreover, "in general", no advaitin author explains "tat tvam asi" without 
>saying that the jIva is brahman, albeit associated with guNa-s. You arrive 
>at the essential identity only by not identifying with the guNa-s and 
>thereby pruning them off, so to speak.

I believe, here they are treated as limiting adjuncts.

>>And if you accept that the answer is not brahman you cannot say that 
>>brahman is deluded.
>
>Who said that brahman is really deluded?

Two questions have been posed regarding this in my earlier mails with 
reference to gauDapAdA. I suggest you go through them.

>Just to remind you of the question, to quote your own words, "And as for 
>your question *who relaizes (sic) his own self as brahman?* The answer 
>cannot be brahman ..."
>
>>The essence of jIva is the Atman which is nothing but brahman. However, 
>>that does not mean brahman is deluded. Logic going against vedAnta is 
>>logic gone astray.
>
>Again, whoever argued that brahman is deluded?

gauDapAdA. Before you disagree you may look at the same two questions.


>>You misunderstood me. My intention is not that jIvanmukta does not sleep 
>>etc. It is just that you cannot say that he is deluded even if he sleeps 
>>etc. No guesses - like comparing this with a normal jIva.
>
>So let me get this clear. The jIvanmukta used to be a normal jIva, but got 
>transformed into something else, because of an experience of the turIya 
>state - is that your position?


No. But the esscence is unaffected(really or otherwise) even though the jIva 
is. Also, it must not be forgotten that the jIva lost its individuality 
ultimately.

However for the sake of rhetoric sruti itself seems to be doing what you are 
accusing me of. You disagree?


>If the jIva is wholly unreal, then it cannot have its essence as the real 
>Atman which is brahman. So there has to be something about the jIva that is 
>real and that always was, is and will be real.

Who denied its empirical reality? And as for unreality you know in what 
senses the term can be applied.


>So, we return to my characterization of your view of jIvanmukti - that the 
>jIvanmukta loses individuality in turIya and then returns to unreal 
>individuality in other states, i.e. into and out of delusion periodically.


To repeat it again - "A jIvanmukta is not comparable to a jIva" Even you 
would agree that sruti is not useful, once realization dawns.


>This thing about the backward direction is your opinion, not shared by 
>gauDapAda (as you yourself claim), but not shared by Sankara ot sureSvara 
>too.
>
>Of course, you are welcome to your own brand of supposedly advaita 
>thinking, but if so, please take care to distinguish it well from 
>traditional advaita vedAnta. After all, if you want to think that gauDapAda 
>used logic that is gone astray, well, that is your choice. I close the 
>issue too.

The statement regarding logic is in general accepted by all vedAntins. Also, 
you are yet to refute my statements on gauDapAda.(oh yes, by openly pointing 
out him, I took care to distinguish the traditional point of view)


Best Regards
Kalyan

_________________________________________________________________
Watch Hallmark. Enjoy cool movies 
http://server1.msn.co.in/sp03/hallmark/index.asp Win hot prizes!