advaita-siddhi 12 (Objection by opponent)

[Sankaran Jayanarayanan]

On Sun, 27 Feb 2000, Anand Hudli wrote:

[..]

>  In other words, the advaitin says the world objects are part
>  of the dream and they may be negated in the dream itself. When
>  he wakes up there are neither the dream objects nor the negation
>  of those objects. But can the advaitin deny the fact that he had
>  experienced a dream in the first place? No. In that case, when
>  he wakes from the world-dream, although there will be Brahman, he
>  will also admit the experience of having "dreamed." This precisely
>  compromises the nonduality principle because we now have two
>  realities - Brahman and the fact that there was a "dream" which
>  has come to an end.
>
>  I have heard this objection from some of my MAdhva friends. In reply,
>  we may say that the analogy of dream and waking states to the waking
>  state and Brahman (the fourth) cannot be carried too far. Every
>  analogy has certain limitations that we need to be aware of. We
>  remember the fact that we dreamed in the waking state because the
>  act of dreaming is an "event" in the time frame of the waking state.
>  That is why we admit the fact of having dreamed, although we do
>  not have to admit the reality of content of the dream.
>  But in the fourth or turIya state of Brahman, even Time vanishes. There
>  can be NO events. So there cannot even be an indication of the fact that
>  a "dream" occurred.
>

Yes, since Brahman is changeless, and the concept of time can only exist
when there is *some* change in the universe. I have heard the objection
that in order to know that an object is unchanging, one needs to measure
its properties at a certain time, compare it with a "future" measurement,
and then note that the object has remained unchanged for that time. So the
argument goes, "Even to know that Brahman is unchanging, there must exist
the nconcept of time."

But the objection to that is obvious: for the measurement of time, one
uses a clock, and notes the changes in the clock (or one may simply
observe the change in one's own mental states) -- time cannot be measured
without change *somewhere*. At the PA. level, there is no change
whatsoever in the universe (which is Brahman alone), and hence no way to
actually "measure time."

Anyway, that was my two cents.

>  Anand
>

-Kartik

PS: I was only waiting for someone else to start the discussion since I
thought the opponent had a solid case :-) Thanks to Ravi (and madhusUdana)
for leading the way.

--
bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

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