knowledge and wisdom

[Gummuluru Murthy]

On Fri, 2 May 1997, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:

> On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gummuluru Murthy wrote:
>
> > The question is an appropriate one for which my answer below may be
> > inadequate. As Shri Anand Hudli says, these are jeevanmuktas. I think
> > they were born enlightened because these characteristics cannot be
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > acquired in the middle of life of a jeeva. Our recognition of them
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> The SAstras do not support such a position. There are a few like vAmadeva
> who were "born enlightened" but even such individuals are described as
> having realized brahman in the womb itself. That is to say that from the
> time of conception to the time of brahman realization, even vAmadeva was
> not called a mukta. As far as the world is concerned, there is a before
> and an after. To say that everybody who is considered a jIvanmukta must
> have been born enlightened, is to overlook the working of prArabdha karma.
> It also does not explain how they are even born.
>
> The above position also assumes that every individual is a distinct jIva.
> Fine. If so, ask yourself, "am I the jIva?" If yes, according to
> what is said above, you can never be enlightened, and all advaita teaching
> is pointless. But then, when you understand "jIvo brahmaiva nA para.h",
> you have understood that really you are brahman. For all practical
> purposes, such an understanding is a concrete event that makes the jIva a
> jIvanmukta. It is not necessary to insist that any jIvanmukta must have
> been born so. The brahmAnubhava can happen in the womb, or during
> normal human life.
>

I am grateful to Shri Vidyasankar for his response and to another List
member who commented by private e-mail and made a similar comment.
I recognize the fallacy of my statement as far as acquiring wisdom or
                                                  ^^^^^^^^^
characteristics of jivanmukta.

I like to re-phrase my statement this way.

We do not acquire anything new. We are already wise. Our wisdom is
covered by avidya which makes us think we are finite. Nothing new
is acquired during the life of the jeeva. Only avidya has been removed.
Once avidya is eliminated, we recognize what we are. It means then, we
are all "born" with wisdom but covered with various layers of avidya.
Some jeevas may have thicker layers of avidya than others. As various
layers of avidya are removed through saadhana, the Self shines through.
A similar statement is made by Shri egodust a few months back, and by
Shri Giri many times.

Now coming back to whether jeevanmuktas are "born" or a jeeva is
transformed into jeevanmukta through a jeeva's life-form:

1. As seen by a person who has realized the Self: This person does not
see the birth of a jeeva; sees everything as non-dual;

2. As seen by us mortals: We see jeevas being born and dying. We see
transformation in the jeevas and we call them jeevanmuktas.  Yes, in that
way, Shri Vidyasankar is correct that a jeeva gets transformed to
jeevanmukta (as seen by us) by the removal of the layers of avidya of
the jeeva (but not by acquiring new wisdom). When our avidya is removed,
we will see everything non-dual. Our interpretation of the event changes.

I think we agree that the jeeva took this shape with full wisdom.
Jeevanmuktas' interpretation of the birth of jeeva is the same: that
jeeva is part of Brahman which envelopes the whole cosmos; that jeeva
appears to suffer the misery of the world because of avidya. We may
^^^^^^^
differ slightly in what the world calls that event of birth. But, in our
quest for removal of layers of avidya, the world view is really
immaterial.

> Vidyasankar
>

Regards
Gummuluru Murthy
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Sarvaagamaanaa maachaarah prathamam parikalpathe !
                                          Sage Vyasa in Maha Bharatha

For all (incoming) knowledge, discipline is the most fundamental.
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