Andrew Cohen in conversation (fwd)

[Shashikanth Hosur]

                       Surrender Means Having No Control

Question: It seems to me that there are people who have had experiences
or who have an understanding of nonduality, but theyre not bringing it
into their day-to-day life. So I was wondering how to do that. How can
one bring the understanding of nonduality into ones life moment by
moment?

Andrew: What youre speaking about is bringing God into everyday life,
isnt it? How to bring God into everyday life? Well, its a difficult
thing to do because if we talk about bringing God into everyday life,
then theres almost a sense of physically bringing something down here.
But the great seers and the great rishis tell us that God is
everywhere, and they even say that God is none other than our own self.
If theres a sense of bringing something thats transcendent down,
bringing it into our life, then that means that fundamentally we
believe that God is not our own self. So I think what we need to be
concerned with is not bringing God into our life, but trying to find
out what the truth of our own nature is. And when thats discovered,
then what youre talking about will happen.  When the understanding of
the truth of our own nature is there, then mysterious things begin to
happen. Some kind of mysterious transformation begins to occur.  You
find that youre not doing anything, but that theres action taking place
and there is a response that you dont feel any possession or ownership
of. And you can see that this is very powerful, and that the power
thats being expressed has nothing to do with the individual. It
transcends any kind of historical relationship to life. Its something
that goes beyond the normal boundaries of understanding; its
transcendental. And you begin to see that this is simply happening. You
feel, I dont have any control over it. I dont have any control over it.
I dont have any control over it. You see, this is a mysterious
discovery of an extraordinary, miraculous condition that your mind
cannot grasp. It cant really understand it because what Im speaking
about transcends your ability to understand. You just say, This is so.
This is so.  This is so. In spite of the way things appear to be, in
spite of the appearance of thought, feeling and the body, and of others
and the whole world, theres some mysterious cause that completely
transcends individuality that is doing everything. Thats the point:
that something is doing everything. And then at that point theres no
sense of the individual bringing anything from anywhere to anywhere
else. There is just the pure and spontaneous expression of ones own
self.  So the question is, if this is true, but it is not ones own
experience, then why isnt it? If its not ones own experience, then it
means that somehow we must be interfering with it, because Im speaking
about something that is absolutely spontaneous. It has nothing to do
with effort; it has nothing to do with will. So if this absolute
condition or absolute nature is not something thats being expressed as
ourselves, then it means that somehow we must be in the way, somehow we
must be interfering with this kind of movement within ourselves. And if
thats the case, then we have to really ask ourselves how we are doing
that. How are we interfering and why are we interfering?  When people
begin to look inside, what usually is discovered are some very fixed
ideas that one is holding on to that make the spontaneous expression of
the Self nature impossible. What fixed ideas? Maybe I have a fixed idea
that I am a certain person, or you have a fixed idea that you are a
certain person.  Any fixed idea we have about ourselves will inhibit
the spontaneous and natural expression of who we really are. But its a
very scary thing for a person to be able to be fully who they are
without clinging on to any fixed notion of self.  A lot of people would
say, Well, if I dont know who I am, I wont know how to respond. I wont
know where to go. I wont know what to do. But I say thats not true. If
you dont know who you are, you may find that you know how to respond in
ways that you never even imagined. So thats really the key to it.

Q: The difficulty comes in if you want something to turn out in a
certain way.  Any kind of desire will interfere with that.

A: Yes, of course. If were speaking about getting out of the way so
that something else can begin to happen, so that something mysterious
can begin to overtake us and begin to come through us, this is a way of
speaking about surrender.  Surrender means we dont know whats going to
happen. But when we really, truly surrender, we give up needing to be
sure.

Q: We dont care what happens.

A: No, no. Hold on. Thats too much. I think saying we dont care might
be too extreme. I mean, of course we care. We want everything to turn
out for the best, dont we? But the point is, if the surrender is
genuine, it means that theres a genuine sense that we dont know whats
going to happen. In the depths of our being, we dont know. Its a very
extraordinary thing. When in the deepest part of ourselves we dont know
whats going to happen, everything opens up. Life becomes very joyous
and mysterious.  So not knowing whats going to happen is also, as youve
been saying, not insisting that things turn out a particular way. But
when we dont know whats going to happen, and when we find our
liberation in being able to truly embrace that kind of surrender, then
we find out that things often work out in marvelous ways that we could
never, ever have imagined and never have believed possible. Because
what is truly extraordinary is beyond conception. You cant conceive of
it. You cant imagine it. Only when we give up this need to have to know
whats going to happen can these kind of miraculous things actually
begin to occur.  That doesnt mean we dont care. Theres nothing
nihilistic about it. Of course we may care very much. But the need to
find security in the future is given up.  Just ask yourself what life
would be like if we were no longer looking for security in the future.
Can you imagine what it would be like if each and every one of us were
no longer looking for any kind of security in tomorrow, or the day
after, or next month, or next year, or five or ten years from nowno
security whatsoever in the future, no security at all? Oh my God,
everything would become so big! It would open up. It would be
unimaginable because we wouldnt be waiting for anything and we wouldnt
be hoping for anything at all.  It doesnt mean we wouldnt care, but in
the depths of our being, everything would suddenly become possible. And
when everything becomes possible, the way you respond to life gets very
bigso big that in some cases it just breaks all boundariesall fixed
rules break and something unthinkable occurs.

Q: Yes. Not caring was a bad expression to use. I think trust would be
a better word.

A: Well, trust is a good word, but I think in terms of the point Im
trying to make, its not really the word I would use. Because trust
makes us feel safe. I want to avoid that. Trust has the sense that
everythings going to be okay.  Maybe everything wont be okay. The point
is, if we want to be free, if liberation is something we genuinely
want, then we have to dare to consider, Oh my God, I might not make it.
Liberation is not a guarantee of this birth.  Some people say, Well, it
has to happen sooner or later. This is everybodys karmic destiny. This
is what were told also in the East, that its everybodys karmic destiny.
Whether thats true or not, I dont really know.  But Im not going to
wait around for that. So the point is to have the courage to face the
possibility that things may not work out okay.  So what does that mean?
It means if were not willing to look very seriously into this, we may
make the wrong choice. Its possible that due to ignorance and due to
fear and selfishness, we might make a wrong choice, and that wrong
choice could determine our destiny. So I think that we need to become
very concerned about what it is that were doing and what it is that we
want so that our destiny becomes assured. When I say that we dont know
whats going to happen, its meant to generate a certain kind of
insecurity that will help wake us up and give us the strength to take
big risks. Because in taking big risks, everything begins to open up.
The more big risks you take, the more the whole universe begins to open
up. But if we live in a way where were just looking for security and
safety and we want to know everythings going to be okay, this kind of
vast expanse of seeing and knowing doesnt come.

Q: Then surrender is something that includes absolutely everything.

A: Well, ideally surrender does. But its a rare person whos that
surrendered.  A lot of spiritual people talk about surrender, but lets
face it, very few people seem to be able to surrender to such a degree
that it actually liberates them. So we have to be careful when we talk
about surrender because its really a big thing. We have to get to the
point where we say, Thy will be done. Thy will be done. Thy will be
done. And surrender that is genuine and that is complete liberates. It
liberates in a way thats powerful. It means that youve let go of
everything to such a degree that youve found the very center of it all.
Youve found the very center of it all and you actually feel that that
is where you abide. Even experientially you always know that thats
where you are.  Even physically, you feel that thats where you are: I
am at the very center.  You may be in India, you could be in Europe,
you could be anywhere, in the middle of the ocean, but you say, This is
where I am.  If youve really surrendered, you fall into that place
which is the very center and you have no doubt about it. And thats why
youre not so preoccupied about the futurebecause everythings so full
and so rich. And this revelation is always being reaffirmed. Again and
again you see, Yes, this is true. Its not just one experience, but its
a revelation thats constantly being affirmed over and over again. Over
and overand you say, Yes, this is so. And again, Yes, this is so. And
it continues endlessly. Its something thats dynamic.  Its explosive
because its liberating. Its not some- thing thats passive.  Someone
recently said to me, My teacher told me that surrender was a passive
matter. Surrender is not passive. Its very dynamic. Its something that
most human beings dont seem to want to do, and even out of all the ones
who want to do it, very few seem to succeed. So we have to say it has
nothing to do with passivity. It must be something very dynamic, even
explosive. It has nothing to do with passively letting go: Now Im
letting go of my fear. Now Im letting go of my selfishness...this kind
of thing. Its much bigger than that. You let go of the whole thing and
something happens then. When you say, Not my will be done, but thy will
be done, then something happens. It means your life is finished.
Whoever you are, the life of the personality is finished, and then what
they call at this ashram the Divine Life begins. And if that has not
occurred in an extraordinary way, a way that is deep and profound, then
one hasnt surrendered. Or if one has, it has not been enough. It means
that one has to let go much, much more.  A lot of people say theyve
surrendered. They say, Ive let go of so much. If you have let go so
much that you feel your life is actually being taken away from you, if
you can feel it being swept away, then that is surrender. And then
something else takes over. Thats the point. Something else begins to
happen thats extraordinary. And then its like youre taken up by a
hurricane. Do you know what thats like? Its as if youre a twig in the
middle of a hurricane:  you have no control. Youre swept along by this
immense power, a tremendous force that you have no control over. But
the reason it makes you ecstatic and it gives you so much joy is
because youre not trying to hold on any longer. So surrender is not
something thats passive. You havent really surrendered unless you feel
a hurricane has completely lifted you off the ground and is throwing
you through the universe. Im not exaggerating. Thats surrender. Its a
very powerful thing.
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>From  Mon Jul 15 15:17:09 1996
Message-Id: <MON.15.JUL.1996.151709.GMT.>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:17:09 GMT
Reply-To: kstuart at mail.telis.org
To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
From: Ken Stuart <kstuart at MAIL.TELIS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Multiple copies of mails.
Comments: To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>,
        M Suresh <msuresh at INDIA.TI.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199607151920.OAA26734 at dadsparc51.india.ti.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:20:11 -0500, M Suresh <msuresh at INDIA.TI.COM> =
wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>  Sometimes I get multiple copies of mails, especially the
>  replies to my posts. This is due to the replier not
>  deleting the e-mail of the sender which appears along with
>  the mailing list email-id "advaita-l at tamu.edu".
>
>  I suggest that if it is not cumbersome in the mailing tool
>  used, the person replying to a post take care to remove
>  the e-mail of the sender in the "To" list of the reply.
>  For example "msuresh at INDIA.TI.COM" can be deleted in
>  the "to" list :
>
>To: ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU, msuresh at INDIA.TI.COM
>
>  This will avoid receiving duplicate mails and also the chance
>  of removing wrong mails while removing duplicates.
>
>regards,
>Suresh.

Perhaps the mailing list software can be adjusted so that it doesn't put =
the
author in the "Reply-to:" header along with the Advaita-L address?

This duplication can be thought of as having value in responding to =
newsgroup
messages because not all messages arrive at all Usenet sites, but there =
is no
need for it in e-mail mailing lists, since one receives both copies at =
exactly
the same time.


Thanks,

Ken                       <*>
kstuart at mail.telis.org