Skeptics, fetal nirvana & more...

[Ian Goddard]

At 08:41 PM 7/9/96 -0500, Sankar Jayanarayanan wrote:

 >> IAN: The traditional non-contradictional logic counter to your analysis
 >> is that "self" *is* contradicted by all the universe that is defined as
 >> "not-self." I can deny that this chair is part of myself, thus the
 >> consciousness that I am, which is the measure of "the Self," is
 >> not universally present. How would you answer this counter?
 >
 >The self itself is not known. If the self is truly known, the "division" of
 >self and not-self is not experienced. As Ramakrishna says,"A Vedantin
 >discriminates saying `neti, neti'; but after realization, it is found that
 >all that has been negated is in reality Brahman."
 >
 >Nagarjuna too says,"The Buddhas have...not referred to anything called the
 >self or the non-self."
 >
 >Maybe you could say that "neti, neti" is "before realization" and "iti, iti"
 >is "after realization". :-)

IAN: I agree with your answer, but would observe only that it will leave
those who have not seen the light with hands up in the air, "OK, if you
say so. Perhaps when I see it I'll understand then."

Skeptics of nonduality, as are most "Western" thinkers, will not buy
this because they can observe that just because reality appeared to be
one unified Self with white light, or whatever features like "bliss"
one might add, does not mean this was/is true. The experience is a
naturally albeit rarely arising hallucination caused by neurological
phenomena. Some kind of brain seizure that is all in your head.

There is a popular theory of a very well know psychologist -- Stanislov
Groff, who has studied the religious experience for many years in many
people the world over -- that claims the experience of "oceanic bliss"
white light and the expansion of self-boundaries unto infinity is a
remanifestation of the fetal experience in the womb. As Lao Tzu said
(going on memory here) "returning to the mother of all things."

The argumentation and evidence for this conclusion is very strong and
sobering, it is based upon hundreds of case studies. Based upon one of
my enlightenment experiences, I think it is largely true, but at the same
time is not an invalidation of the white light "I am all" experience because
indeed the fetus is on the border of the knowledge of the clear light and
the appearance of the universe of duality. It follows that by returning
to the first moments of the existence of the brain/mind one could be
able to see the state prior to physical "embodiment" and thus come
face to face with one's true nature.

Secular humanist skeptics see Dr. Groff's work as proof that enlightenment
is all in your head, but I see it as a confirmation that it is seeing
outside the mind by returning you to the primary conception of the mind
before it covered over the white light field with illusions. The fact
that Dr. Groff's work does not explain is why would a fetus see white
light? The womb is dark. There is the hole through which the truth
in this matter shines.


>> As the "empty" space around a particle is a part of that particle, it
>> follows directly that every particle is a part of every other particle
>> unto infinity, connected via their common part: space.
>
>The statement that "every particle is a part of every other particle" is far
>far away from advaita. In fact, it's so close to Buddhism which maintains that
>"so far as no other evidence is found, every object is dependent on every other
>object. Since emperical evidence suggests that there is no object that is
>non-causal and non-conditioned by other objects, it follows that (so long as
>there is no other evidence) there is nothing that exists INDEPENDENTLY."


IAN: Well stated!! Indeed that is what I am saying. It may be "far away
from vadvaita" in that this specific line of analysis has not been employed
by advaitians, however I don't see that it is "far away" in that it is
somehow contrary to conclusions of the adviatian school.

I see every school of thought, or at least the valid schools, as living
bodies of knowledge or perception. As such, their nature is to grow
and evolve. To this effect it arguments should evolve to speak to
wider audience and to deal with new counter observations.

 > Nagarjuna even says,"To the person who can teach dependent arising...
 > I bow my head."

IAN: Exactly.


>> Every particle is
>> thus the same thing, the same unified identity the same "Self." If I am
>> my body, then I am the whole universe. This 100% refined nonduality.
>
>The flaw is in thinking that "every particle...", which suggests that
"there >are many particles". There is no "many", but only ONE Self. Advaita
denies
>that there is _anything_ apart from the self.

IAN: The many are not-many. I don't think I've implied otherwise anywhere or
that it follows from relational identity that there is anything but the
unified nondual Self. The point here I believe is that relational identity
does not deny that many things *appear*, like the many letters on your screen,
it then shows how the appearance of many parts is in fact the confirmation
of the unitary Self, such that, the appearance of many dose not contradict
the unitary reality. This is the only analysis that confirms the Self in
all states of experience, even the assumed state of "not-enlightement."

This letter > A < is the relation of A to ~A. Free from the area external
to it, which is area ~A, and the relation of A to ~A, A has no existence.
If a thing is the sum of all those features necessary for its existence
(as good a criteria what it "is" is as you'll find), then the letter is
both internal (A) and external (~A) areas, and thus is, via its external
area, all those things that occupy all space. Its identity is thus nonlocal,
everywhere and nowhere specifically. Thus the myriad of features in the
field of awareness actaully confirm the featureless unitary nonlocal
identity of the Self. Duality is the confirmation of the nonduality.


Law of Identity: A is A, relative to not-A. A = (A + ~A)

Law of Nonidentity: If there is 100% A, there is 0% A. A = ~A

absolute reality: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/reality.html