[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] rope has some problem in rope snake analogy :-)

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms Sri Vikram prabhuji
Hare Krishna

>  Is busy with office work, year end revenue closing, year beginning book closing etc. at office, kindly bear with me for any delays in my replies.

If I understand your position correctly, the perceived snake is purely a "mental imagination" and doesn't have any reality whatsoever (paramarthika / vyavaharika / pratibhasika) outside the mind. Thus the locus of the snake, even while being perceived as such, is the mind alone.


  *   One thing we have to keep in mind that ‘deep’ analysis of all analogies with regard to anyathAgrahaNa can happen only after the posterior knowledge of the object being perceived (yathArtha jnana).  If rajju is perceived as rajju no problem no talks,  likewise, if the snake is really there also no talks and no problem with regard to authenticity of cognition.  Problem and deeper analysis required only when the rajju is perceived as sarpa and later realization of this misconception and correct understanding of actually existing thing.  And it can also be said that if one thinks that there is sarpa (in place of rajju) and run away from that place forever without trying to ascertain what exactly is there then also the deep discussion is not required rather will not take place at all.  So, all these discussions would take place only ‘after’ the dawn of yathArtha jnana of the rajju rather getting rid of ayathArtha jnana of rajju.  Hope you are with me here 😊

If so, I have some detailed follow-up questions for you (and others interested in this exercise), to flush out all ambiguity, and earnestly solicit your response:


  *   Since my school days I am not good at answering questions even if you provide multiple choice questions 😊 So please bear with my ignorance prabhuji even if I contradict myself while answering your question paper 😊


Let's consider the following scenario - Part 1:
Ram and Shyam are walking in Ram's house. In a dimly-lit corridor they perceive a long thin curled "object" lying on the floor, which actually is a rope. Ram cognizes it as a rope and is indifferent to it. Shyam cognizes it as a snake, becomes fearful and starts shivering.

From Ram's current perspective:
Q1: What, per his understanding, is the locus of the object of his cognition - rope? Object on the floor / mind?


  *   From Ram’s perspective it is vyavahAra yOgya rajju only that is what he sees.

Q2: What is the relative ontological status of the rope as the object? Sat (vyavaharika) / mithya (pratibhasika) / asat?


  *   As said above, vyavahAra yOgya rajju which he uses daily to draw the water from the well 😊

Q3: What is the relative ontological status of the snake as the object? Sat (vyavaharika) / mithya (pratibhasika) / asat?


  *   This question does not arise at all as you yourself confirmed he looks at it ‘as it is’ and is indifferent.

From Shyam's current perspective:
Q4: What, per his understanding, is the locus of the object of his cognition - snake? Object on the floor / mind?


  *   In this story of rAma-shyAma, the ‘Aspada’ for the cognition of snake is,  the object on the floor and cognition of sarpa is due to this object on the floor.  ( Please note I am not taking the exceptions of adhyAsa as explained by bhAshyakAra in adhyAsa bhAshya and I am just replying to your questions based on your story at rAma’s house 😊 )

Q5: What is the relative ontological status of the snake as the object? Sat (vyavaharika) / mithya (pratibhasika) / asat?


  *   From the shyam’s current perspective ( which is quite evident that there will be a talk about future realization of something else!!) it is ‘snake’ that he is perceiving.  And shyAm’s current perspective he is ‘just’ seeing the snake without thinking about rope nor anything he would entertain anything about his memories of snake.  ( again please note I am not considering smruti rUpa, pUrva drushtAvabhAsa etc. which bhAshyakAra clarifies and am just going with the flow of your story).

Q6: What is the level of reality of his experience of his body shivering from the cognition of the snake? Vyavaharika / pratibhasika?


  *   Shivering of his body ‘as real as’  his seeing the snake on the floor.

From the rope's current perspective:

Q7: Hypothetically, if the rope has cognitive awareness, does it cognize itself as possessing the nature & attributes of a rope or a snake? Rope / snake?


  *   I am afraid hypothetically also this question is not valid!!  It is just like asking  barren women has two sons rAma and shyAma and who is elder and who is younger?? 😊 the basic premise of this question itself is wrong because of the simple reason it is the problem of shyAm does not have anything to do with rajju.  bhAshyakAra himself says there is no aNumAtramapi change in rajju even when one is seeing it as something else!!


Next, let's continue with the scenario - Part 2:

Seeing Shyam fearful, Ram clarifies that "it is just a rope". On hearing these words, Shyam recognizes the object as a rope. His fear is gone but his body is still shivering


  *   Yes

From Ram's new perspective:
Q8: Has there been any change in his cognition of the object? Yes/ no?



  *   Where is the question of Ram’s new perspective here?? Earlier did he have some other perspective??  He was / is seeing rope as rope only !!  is it not??

From Shyam's new perspective:
Q9: What now, per his current understanding, is the locus of the object of his current cognition - rope? Object on the floor / mind?



Ø     His current understanding or locus of his earlier misunderstanding (as sarpa) is rope or object what exactly lies there on the floor.

Q10: What now, per his current understanding, is the locus of the object of his earlier cognition - snake? Object on the floor / mind?



Ø     He understands earlier also there was rope only and by mistake he took it as snake and thanked Ram for helping him to get rid of his misconception.  (anyathAgrahaNa or adhyAsa).

Q11: What is the relative ontological status of the rope as the object? Sat (vyavaharika) / mithya (pratibhasika) / asat?



  *   I think you are repeating the questions phrasing it differently !! aren’t you??

Q12: What is the relative ontological status of the snake as the object? Sat (vyavaharika) / mithya (pratibhasika) / asat?

Ø     His realization fetched him the knowledge that there was / is never snake out there and snake was only in his mind due to his ajnAna about the rajju (jnana abhAva of the actually existing rajju)

Q13: What now is the level of reality of his experience of his body shivering from the cognition of the snake? Vyavaharika / pratibhasika?

Ø     Again his realization is that there was a  mistaken knowledge (mithyAjnAna) about rajju caused him the shivering etc. with regard to non-existing sarpa.


From the rope's new perspective:
Q14: Hypothetically, if the rope has cognitive awareness, has there been any change in its cognition of its nature & attributes? Yes / no?



  *   Rope and analogy is there for the one who is taking the sarpa for rajju and it is not there to talk anything about inert thing rajju (strictly within this drushtAnta) whether rajju has undergone any change or not during ayatArtha jnana or after yathArtha jnana is the head ache of the cognizer not the cognized rope (aspada or adhishtAna).


Furthermore,
Q15: When did Shyam realize that his experience was an adhyasa (error / avidya / ignorance) of "rope misunderstood as a snake"? End of part 1 or end of part 2?



  *   What is your answer to this question??  When Shyam realized the rope jnana?? End of Part 1 or 2 or in between at some point of time when Rama helped and educated him ??


As an additional request, as it would help streamline deeper discussion, I would like you to please indulge in reviewing alignment of the 50 points I shared in the link -> https://archive.org/details/reflections-on-fundamentals-of-advaita

>  Would look into it prabhuji but you have to be mentally prepared to accept the new perspectives on those points ofcourse based on shankara’s PTB.  😊



Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar