[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: Fwd: Brahman has no default form; Only contextual form - Varaha Purana

[V Subrahmanian]

Dear Venkat ji,

Thanks for sharing the Vichara sagara pages on the topic.  Upon reading
this, a question arises:

The author has said: the bodies of avatara purushas like Rama and Krishna
are not bhautika.  They did generate sukha (to the punyavaan jivas) and
duhkha (to the papavaan jivas).  Yet, the very avatara bodies are
themselves not a product of punya or otherwise of Rama and Krishna; the
jivas' punya/papa alone is the cause of the sukha, etc.

My question is:  In the 13th chapter of the BG, kshetram (prakriti) is
defined as:

महाभूतान्यहङ्कारो बुद्धिरव्यक्तमेव च ।
इन्द्रियाणि दशैकं च पञ्च चेन्द्रियगोचराः ॥ ५ ॥
इच्छा द्वेषः सुखं दुःखं सङ्घातश्चेतना धृतिः ।
एतत्क्षेत्रं समासेन सविकारमुदाहृतम् ॥ ६ ॥

Here kshetram is all that is observed, experienced. This consists of the
pancha koshas (including the sense/action organs, manas, buddhi, prana,
sthula shariram, ahankara) and the outside world of shabda, sparsha, etc.
Also, the reactions that the contact of the sense/action organs with the
outside world of sound, etc. These reactions are stated to be sukha,
duhkha, etc. All of this is together called kshetram: prakriti and its
parinaama-s. Kshetrajna, the pure Consciousness is the 'other', distinct
from kshetram.

Now, if the avatara bodies of Rama and Krishna generates sukha/duhkha to
the ones who saw them during those avataras, there was essentially contact
of the sense..organs of the jivas with those avatara bodies. The gopis had
the sparsha anubhava. So many in those avataras had sparsha anubhava of the
avatara bodies. The bodies then will have to come under shabda, sparsha,
etc. Taking the 13th chapter specification of the kshetram, the avatara
bodies will have to be admitted to be products of prakriti. Only murta
dravyam can be vishaya for chakshus, sparsha, etc.

In the case of bhaktas who experience the divine bodies of Rama, etc. long
after the avataras have ended their earthly role, the manasa pratyaksha
generates sukha. But even manasa must depend on aindriya anubhava had
before. In this case, the bhakta has seen/read the puranas account of the
rupam of the Lord and that input helps the mano vrittis. Bhaktas have even
visions of the Lord, speak with Him, hug, etc. This is not purely mental;
they see the divine form in front of them, touch, etc. HH Sri Abhinava
Vidyatirtha Swamigal's savikalpa samadhi, etc. anubhavas have been
documented. He leaned forward and touched the feet of Ambal during one such
vision. All these must happen with some material dravya, even if the vision
is subjective. Acharyal has said: if the Lord, during such a vision, had
given a fruit or any other object, that will remain even after the vision
ceases and shall be a proof of the vision.  Such fruit necessarily is
bhautika.

In the light of the above, how do we reconcile the Vichara sagara opinion
with the kshetram definition? I am only seeking to get clarification.

warm regards
subbu




On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 7:12 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Raghav ji,
>
> Please find attached an interesting discussion in the Sanskrit Vichara
> Sagara on the untenability of avatAra sharIra to be bhautika.
> As its a file attachment, it will be rejected by the advaita-l server,
> others can view it by seeing the corresponding message in the advaitin
> google groups: https://groups.google.com/g/advaitin
>
>
> Regards,
> Venkataraghavan
>
>
>
>